Another newby with Ich!

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Hi, I have a newly set up 45 gallon saltwater tank with some crabs, shrimp and 3 starter fish (clownfish, green chromis and violet dottyback). The tank is done cycling, the rock is not live, the sand is. The dotty back seems to have ich, I read that the copper sulfate treatment is the best, so I bought some. Would it be best to:
1) remove the inverts and put them in the hospital tank (10 gallon with heater and bubble filter) then treat the 45 gallon with the fish still in it
2) to remove the fish to the hospital tank to treat them there and have the 45 be fallow for so long

I assume that option 1 would be faster.

Thank you for your time.

 

[fishski13]

Option one would really be faster. If you intend to keep that tank and put the inverts back, than thats a no go. Copper with leach into the rock and sand which than leaves copper in the water even if you do a water change which will affect the inverts.

It is best to remove fish and put them in a quarantine tank and treat it that way.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

did you cycle your tank with the fish in it?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi, I have a newly set up 45 gallon saltwater tank with some crabs, shrimp and 3 starter fish (clownfish, green chromis and violet dottyback). The tank is done cycling, the rock is not live, the sand is. The dotty back seems to have ich, I read that the copper sulfate treatment is the best, so I bought some. Would it be best to:
1) remove the inverts and put them in the hospital tank (10 gallon with heater and bubble filter) then treat the 45 gallon with the fish still in it
2) to remove the fish to the hospital tank to treat them there and have the 45 be fallow for so long

I assume that option 1 would be faster.

Thank you for your time.

What copper product did you buy?
Do you also have a copper test kit?
Are you confident in your ich diagnosis? I ask because clowns often get ich sooner than dottybacks do.

Both options would essentially take the same amount of time - the invertebrates need to lay fallow for at least 45 days (60 is safer). Option 2 is best though.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Hi, I have a newly set up 45 gallon saltwater tank with some crabs, shrimp and 3 starter fish (clownfish, green chromis and violet dottyback). The tank is done cycling, the rock is not live, the sand is. The dotty back seems to have ich, I read that the copper sulfate treatment is the best, so I bought some. Would it be best to:
1) remove the inverts and put them in the hospital tank (10 gallon with heater and bubble filter) then treat the 45 gallon with the fish still in it
2) to remove the fish to the hospital tank to treat them there and have the 45 be fallow for so long

I assume that option 1 would be faster.

Thank you for your time.

Remove the fish to the hospital tank - and let the larger tank remain fallow for 60-80 days. The reason being - it's much more difficult to try to manage copper in a 'display' tank. And - believe it or not - by now, your rock is 'live' - i.e. colonized with bacteria, etc.

Having said that - a picture would help - as many people think its 'ich' when it's something else that may require a different treatment. Did you Quarantine the fish etc?

EDIT - I didn't read Jay's response before posting. Agree with his comments as well

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Option one would really be faster. If you intend to keep that tank and put the inverts back, than thats a no go. Copper with leach into the rock and sand which than leaves copper in the water even if you do a water change which will affect the inverts.

It is best to remove fish and put them in a quarantine tank and treat it that way.

Thank you! Since I'm new, I figured there would be some detail like that I didn't know. Thank you so much.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

did you cycle your tank with the fish in it?

Yes, I put lots of those bacterial additives in it and it seemed to work well. Ammonia never spiked and nitrates peaked at around 15ppm. Now they stabilized at 10. I did it with just the clownfish and chromis. Its been running for about 1.5 months now and the readings are very stable.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Remove the fish to the hospital tank - and let the larger tank remain fallow for 60-80 days. The reason being - it's much more difficult to try to manage copper in a 'display' tank. And - believe it or not - by now, your rock is 'live' - i.e. colonized with bacteria, etc.

Having said that - a picture would help - as many people think its 'ich' when it's something else that may require a different treatment. Did you Quarantine the fish etc?

EDIT - I didn't read Jay's response before posting. Agree with his comments as well

I have trouble getting a picture. I'm not too confident with the diagnosis. I've seen ich often in freshwater tanks. This looks visually exactly the same. However, the spots seem to fall off often and return every few days. Just on the one fish. IDK if one of those shrimp eat them, if its the ich lifecycle or my diagnosis is wrong.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

What copper product did you buy?
Do you also have a copper test kit?
Are you confident in your ich diagnosis? I ask because clowns often get ich sooner than dottybacks do.

Both options would essentially take the same amount of time - the invertebrates need to lay fallow for at least 45 days (60 is safer). Option 2 is best though.

Jay

Hi,

Its copper safe made by Fritz. 2.2% copper sulfate. No I don't have a copper test kit. I'm not too confident with the diagnosis. I've seen ich often in freshwater tanks. This looks visually exactly the same. However, the spots seem to fall off often and return every few days. Just on the one fish. IDK if one of those shrimp eat them, if its the ich lifecycle or my diagnosis is wrong.

 

[vetteguy53081]

First of all welcome. Pics would be beneficial in determining ich is what you have and not something else. A starter kit from Walmart has most of the needed essentials to start a quarantine/hospital tank.
Ich will look like grains of salt on the skin of the fish and followed by loss of appetite, itching against objects, rapid breathing and more.
Coppersafe is a best bet for ich -IF ich and you want to/must treat for 30 Full days and monitor therapeutic copper levels of 2.25-2.5 using a Reliable copper test kit- No Api brand and also ammonia level.
The display tank itself should be and remain fishless known as FALLOW for 45-60 days which allows all the cysts and tromont stage parasites to die from no host and complete cycles and die off.
If you dont do a full 30 day treatment- that alone will invite new cysts as you are seeing. When the dots disappear does not confirm they are gone.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Thank you. Yeah, Ill post a picture as soon as I see him again with those spots. With my SA cichlid tanks, the spots didnt go away like that. IDK what the situation is. But they do look exactly like ich. I now have a hospital 10 gal set up, it will become a quarantine tank in the future As usual, being lazy causes more work in the long run.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

In general, thank you all so much for responding to me and my beginner problems. Its a situation caused by my own impatience to get the fish into the display tank with out quarantine. I know how busy people are, so please know how helpful your advice is and how much I appreciate it. This is my first saltwater tank. Also, can I put corals in the display tank during the fallow period?

 

[MnFish1]

I have trouble getting a picture. I'm not too confident with the diagnosis. I've seen ich often in freshwater tanks. This looks visually exactly the same. However, the spots seem to fall off often and return every few days. Just on the one fish. IDK if one of those shrimp eat them, if its the ich lifecycle or my diagnosis is wrong.

The fact that the spots are 'falling off' does suggest Ich.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi,

Its copper safe made by Fritz. 2.2% copper sulfate. No I don't have a copper test kit. I'm not too confident with the diagnosis. I've seen ich often in freshwater tanks. This looks visually exactly the same. However, the spots seem to fall off often and return every few days. Just on the one fish. IDK if one of those shrimp eat them, if its the ich lifecycle or my diagnosis is wrong.

The spots coming and going is a common symptom of marine ich when it first starts up. Without a copper test kit, you will need to know the EXACT volume of your tank and dose the copper according to that. For example, a ten gallon tank may only hold 8.5 gallons of water.

Jay

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

I think I have enough information to do this now, thank you all so much again for your help. I ordered the test kit and will do as you all advised.

 

[sumtingbig]

Fresh water dip and UV Sterilizer.47 years of saltwater , sold 8 boxes of fish a week and never once put drugs in my systems.

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Fresh water dip and UV Sterilizer.47 years of saltwater , sold 8 boxes of fish a week and never once put drugs in my systems.

Just hooked up an old UV sterilizer I had laying around for the Display tank. Thank you very much!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Just hooked up an old UV sterilizer I had laying around for the Display tank. Thank you very much!

It's been five days, how has the disease progressed? I didn't see any pictures, if you post some, I might be able to confirm if it is ich or not. If it ich and has advanced, UV will not likely work to control an outbreak, especially if the bulb is worn. Personally, I wouldn't rely on that technique. Here is a write-up from my book:

UV sterilizers
Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

The fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

Jay

 

[Aaron Hinckley 52]

Hi Jay,

The spots did not really come back, I've been watching but there haven't been another real outbreak yet. The way it was going, I might have missed an outbreak in the QT. The spots would appear for only about a day at a time. I wonder if it cleared itself up. Now the fish are in the hospital tank with 1.5-2 (ppm?) chelated copper sulfate. Everything got stirred up in the display tank as I did a water change, one little crab died and now the peppermint shrimp is attaching the hermit crabs! Even if the UV doesn't work well, I want to be appreciative of the gentleman who recommended it and I figure that it cant hurt. Can I ask, is it true that the blue leg hermits will attack and kill snails? If so, is there a kind of snail I should get to avoid this?

Thank you so much and take care,

Sincerely

Aaron Hinckley

It's been five days, how has the disease progressed? I didn't see any pictures, if you post some, I might be able to confirm if it is ich or not. If it ich and has advanced, UV will not likely work to control an outbreak, especially if the bulb is worn. Personally, I wouldn't rely on that technique. Here is a write-up from my book:

UV sterilizers
Ultraviolet (UV) sterilizers are also sold as a “cure” for Cryptocaryon. The problem is that most hobbyist-sized UV sterilizers do not have the power to make an effective kill on the relatively large Cryptocaryon parasite. Additionally, UV sterilizers are effective only on the tomite/theront stage, as this is the only point where the parasite is even present in the water column.

The fallacy here is that tomites/theronts must leave the fish. Actually, some of them get caught up in the fish’s mucus and stay attached until they become infective trophonts again. This means that UV sterilization will not eliminate active Cryptocaryon infections from a single aquarium. Where it does have benefit is in eliminating tomites as they pass through a filtration system from one discrete tank to another (like in a public aquarium or fisheries lab). Decades ago, diatom filters were touted as cures for ich and velvet. The same issue applies with them; there are adherent forms of these protozoans that can continue to infect the fish without ever having to leave the fish’s body. Even if they do, the “dwell time” factor means that some theronts will still be present in the water column to infect the fish.

A recent study (Ge-Ling, 2022) indicates that the UV dose required to kill Cryptocaryon theronts/tomites is 185,000 uw/S/cm2. They do go on however, to conclude: “ …both ozone and UV are ineffective in controlling infection within an individual aquarium because of the adhesive nature of C. irritans tomonts (Ma et al., 2017). Therefore, the focus on UV and ozone treatment should prevent live theronts flow into aquaculture ponds. Second, the tomonts are strongly resistant to UV or ozone than theronts, implying that recommended production doses cannot wholly kill tomonts….”

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi Jay,

The spots did not really come back, I've been watching but there haven't been another real outbreak yet. The way it was going, I might have missed an outbreak in the QT. The spots would appear for only about a day at a time. I wonder if it cleared itself up. Now the fish are in the hospital tank with 1.5-2 (ppm?) chelated copper sulfate. Everything got stirred up in the display tank as I did a water change, one little crab died and now the peppermint shrimp is attaching the hermit crabs! Even if the UV doesn't work well, I want to be appreciative of the gentleman who recommended it and I figure that it cant hurt. Can I ask, is it true that the blue leg hermits will attack and kill snails? If so, is there a kind of snail I should get to avoid this?

Thank you so much and take care,

Sincerely

Aaron Hinckley

The trouble with ich is that it can go incognito for some time, and then start back up. If the fish have all been treated, or remain spot free for 30+ days, the risk of that happening is lessened.
Jay