Another Palytoxin story...

[Lasse]

Note - I do not use the word gaseous - I use the word airborne. How its airborne does not matter for people that has been out for this toxin.

I do not care if it the airborne effect is caused by aerosols or whatever - there is overwhelming evidence that during certain circumstances - the toxin is airborne. These circumstances include - for me - humid air and some handling of the corals above the water surfaces. It does not needs boiling. In the case I was a part of - the toxin was spread to people living on the second floor - not in contact with the corals or been in the actual room when the corals was handled above the water surface. In this case - it was a huge amount of LS overgrown with one of the most known species (according to toxicity) > 300 kg. The LS was not treated at all - we was only moved the LS to styrofoam boxes.

There is som evidences that the toxin not are produced by the coral itself but by a microorganism sometime living together with the coral. This can give some indications why people can handle these type of corals for age - without having problems and that some populations are nearly deadly. But the question is - how do you know this? The answer is - you do not and can´t know it before its to late. This can also give an answer why the corals both can give symptom of pure intoxication and of microbial infections.

Some people try to make the problem to be of minor concern - or in some cases - fake news - with the argue - it has not happen to me and I handle these corals for decades. This is for me the same as to state - I do not believe in the danger or risk of car crashes because it has never happen to me and I get my license in 1968 - therefore - using seat belt - just ridiculous. But - when I think back - I crash a car in 1969 without seat belt (130 km/h - 81 mph) and get no damage at all - I´m convinced - deadly car crashes with no seat belt in high speed - must be a hoax.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Note - I do not use the word gaseous - I use the word airborne. How its airborne does not matter for people that has been out for this toxin.

I do not care if it the airborne effect is caused by aerosols or whatever - there is overwhelming evidence that during certain circumstances - the toxin is airborne. These circumstances include - for me - humid air and some handling of the corals above the water surfaces. It does not needs boiling. In the case I was a part of - the toxin was spread to people living on the second floor - not in contact with the corals or been in the actual room when the corals was handled above the water surface. In this case - it was a huge amount of LS overgrown with one of the most known species (according to toxicity) > 300 kg.

There is som evidences that the toxin not are produced by the coral itself but by a microorganism sometime living together with the coral. This can give some indications why people can handle these type of corals for age - without having problems and that some populations are nearly deadly. But the question is - how do you know this? The answer is - you do not and can´t know it before its to late. This can also give an answer why the corals both can give symptom of pure intoxication and of microbial infections.

Some people try to make the problem to be of minor concern - or in some cases - fake news - with the argue - it has not happen to me and I handle these corals for decades. This is for me the same as to state - I do not believe in the danger or risk of car crashes because it has never happen to me and I get my license in 1968 - therefore - using seat belt - just ridiculous.

Sincerely Lasse

GOOD POINTS..so what happened to you?

 

[DSC reef]

Note - I do not use the word gaseous - I use the word airborne. How its airborne does not matter for people that has been out for this toxin.

I do not care if it the airborne effect is caused by aerosols or whatever - there is overwhelming evidence that during certain circumstances - the toxin is airborne. These circumstances include - for me - humid air and some handling of the corals above the water surfaces. It does not needs boiling. In the case I was a part of - the toxin was spread to people living on the second floor - not in contact with the corals or been in the actual room when the corals was handled above the water surface. In this case - it was a huge amount of LS overgrown with one of the most known species (according to toxicity) > 300 kg. The LS was not treated at all - we was only moved the LS to styrofoam boxes.

There is som evidences that the toxin not are produced by the coral itself but by a microorganism sometime living together with the coral. This can give some indications why people can handle these type of corals for age - without having problems and that some populations are nearly deadly. But the question is - how do you know this? The answer is - you do not and can´t know it before its to late. This can also give an answer why the corals both can give symptom of pure intoxication and of microbial infections.

Some people try to make the problem to be of minor concern - or in some cases - fake news - with the argue - it has not happen to me and I handle these corals for decades. This is for me the same as to state - I do not believe in the danger or risk of car crashes because it has never happen to me and I get my license in 1968 - therefore - using seat belt - just ridiculous. But - when I think back - I crash a car in 1969 without seat belt (130 km/h - 81 mph) and get no damage at all - I´m convinced - deadly car crashes with no seat belt in high speed - must be a hoax.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, I don't think anyone is arguing the dangers of palytoxin. I'm arguing that the stories themselves have questionable information or holes in the story which seem exaggerated. I seriously can't see how you can tie logic of seatbelts and car crashes with this. I wear a seatbelt because I drive a car. I take precautions and use common sense while handling coral. I never said palytoxin is a hoax because "it never happened to me" lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I went to his gofund me page and it said this "My daughter was taken to the er because they found high levels of carbon monoxide in my blood and tested her and found the same. She was released that evening. " Would paly toxin cause carbon monoxide in their blood or did they just have bad luck and get paly toxin in the eye and CO poisoning at the same time. It seems like CO poisoning would explain

Maybe he also had a Portuguese man o' war in his tank, since the bladder is filled with CO gas.

Seriously, I can't see any cause and effect between palytoxin and CO, but they both impact the nervous system, and maybe he misunderstood that they were testing for it, not that they found it.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Lasse, I don't think anyone is arguing the dangers of palytoxin. I'm arguing that the stories themselves have questionable information or holes in the story which seem exaggerated. I seriously can't see how you can tie logic of seatbelts and car crashes with this. I wear a seatbelt because I drive a car. I take precautions and use common sense while handling coral. I never said palytoxin is a hoax because "it never happened to me" lol.

agree with you

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Maybe he also had a Portuguese man o' war in his tank, since the bladder is filled with CO gas.

Seriously, I can't see any cause and effect between palytoxin and CO, but they both impact the nervous system, and maybe he misunderstood that they were testing for it, not that they found it.

Really really really appreciate all your contributions.

 

[PDR]

This whole story seems weird. According to the GFM page, he got rock with "dead coral", cut his hand on the same rock, went to bed and scratched his eye the next morning and somehow still transferred the toxin? How is that even possible? I mean you would assume someone would wash their hand after cutting it right? Is palytoxin really that resilient? Also how would just adding the rock cause it to go airborne?

 

[Javier Leon]

We should weigh as well the claim of contact aersolization as well... brush scrubbing aerosolization without boiling required. I think possible.

Been lucky

18 yrs keeping palys, blasted in the eye once ( a true no no ) zilch

Tons of scrubbing, peroxide bubbling on external treatments, especially if the surfaces area cruddy or if peroxidase bac happen to be present I bet that can cast it too but locally, I wouldn't think across the room but not sure

One of the recent Fox News paly claims had two outliers: Xenia as the locus claimed vs palythoa, and they scrubbed. Xenia made me doubt the whole thing but it made news two mos ago for sure.

So Xenia is toxic too, cause this weekend
(Sunday) I was trying to eliminate some gsp from my rocks and I touch the xenias a few times, Monday night I went to sleep with very high fever am better today but my body still feeling weird. Just a thought and hopefully am not on the final road

 

[PDR]

So Xenia is toxic too, cause this weekend
(Sunday) I was trying to eliminate some gsp from my rocks and I touch the xenias a few times, Monday night I went to sleep with very high fever am better today but my body still feeling weird. Just a thought and hopefully am not on the final road

Xenia is not toxic, your illness must have been unrelated.

 

[brandon429]

Xenia is indeed, however, the stinkiest of soft corals. I used to clip via scissors globs of the rascals out/flushed em still pulsing. Yuk, and I'll add this: any form of contact among creatures to humans is subject to localized inflammation response, hives, all manner of irritation standard allergen spread. In my clinical opinion of zero validity Xenia won't cause response in high ratios among handlers, but it will cause mate rejection and skin penetration down to the stratum corneum layer.

 

[Fourthwind]

They literally cannot be airborne without something like boiling water turning their toxins into a gas. They’re molecularly way too heavy. They do not and cannot just become airborne. If they did, the LFS and coral industry would be full of dead people and infected stores.

You are very wrong in this statement. My entire family was poisoned by palytoxin aerosolized by microbubbles from a newly started protein skimmer.. people do need to take this stuff seriously.. my entire family sick. Wife in ER, and dogs nearly died. Just because this hasn't happened to you or someone else does not mean it's not a threat. A lot of people survived playing Russian roulette...

 

[Webslinger]

get some in your eye, and you would be sorry. i know...lol

 

[brandon429]

How did everyone I've ever known in reefing for two decades, colleges and home reefs, reefs via the web I've rebuilt to the tune of about twenty K all avoid that?

Palythoa was always in tow. Something's missing here a key detail.


In the 90s nobody knew much about it and you never heard of anyone getting wiped out
Whole family events? Unheard of until like five years ago I think was first I'd heard?

I agree hospitals nowadays have much better diagnostic tools but I'm just shocked I don't know anyone in my circle of impact that was even remotely affected even in an allergic sense


No books we cut teeth on mention this profound risk... Slightest aerosolization/whole family risk + pets

Something missing here

 

[sghera64]

Something missing here

Enlightenment [emoji6]. (Found)

 

[norfolkgarden]

Had them for 6 years now.
No issues.

But don't want to make light of other peoples problems.

What types of activities or circumstances should I make sure to avoid to continue not having problems?

I know that "cooking your rock" does NOT involve a stove...

Aerisolized with a skimmer ??

 

[Lasse]

What´s missing here? There is rather strong indications that the production of palotoxin not is done by the coral itself, instead the production is done by a microorganism related to the corals. This means that some populations and/or some species can lack the corresponding microorganism - therefore not dangerous. On the other hand - some population can have this microorganism - and you never know this when you get new fresh LS or corals from the sea. If there is an microorganism involved - it can be introduce with other animals or things from the sea. Therefore the "infection" rate can be changed during time.

In my case - its happen back in 2001 in late may - in fact - it could be exactly 17 years ago yesterday!

The aquarium we was moving has been running for more than 10 years as it was at that time.

Since 2001 there has been at least 5 rather serve occasions of palotoxin intoxications in Sweden (including the one i was a part of). At least 2 of them include airborne intoxication

The ones causing the accident of 2001

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[paphater]

This was local to me. Unless he has changed his story, he brought the rock home and sprayed it off outside and then immediately put it in the tank. I remember seeing the sales ad for the rock in question and it had to have been out of the water for at least a month before this guy bought it.

 

[illest]

This was local to me. Unless he has changed his story, he brought the rock home and sprayed it off outside and then immediately put it in the tank. I remember seeing the sales ad for the rock in question and it had to have been out of the water for at least a month before this guy bought it.

Also local, and I remember seeing the ad too. This guy supposedly had been talking/asking about palytoxin before this even happened on one of the facebook groups. I was told that some people who have known him say he's just looking for attention and obviously money through his go-fund me. I don't personally know him so I can't say that's the truth but it sure is sounding like it. Because I highly doubt hosing off dead rock and then adding it to a new tank/skimmer would cause this much of an issue. I'm curious to know how the news picked up the story. There was two other legit local palytoxin issues dealing with cuts on the finger a few weeks before this. One was treated with steroids and the other healed on it's own.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

in the video it shows his eye is legit blind. It's discolored, faded, and it's a goner.......do you know anything about the eye?

 

[mta_morrow]

Just read this whole thread

This is what I see so far trying to digest it all