Another plumbing thread

[Titleist]

After looking through a ton of plumbing threads I don't see any of my questions answered so yet another thread of plumbing I will start.

Narrowed it down on tank and sump. 200g rectangle glass tank comes standard with 3/4 hose barb returns and ABS bulkheads. Intention is to use a single dragon 3100gph pump for both returns. Output is 1.25, sump is 1" but can be 1.25" if need be. In asking the tank mfg if they can quote with schedule 80 bulkheads, they advise the tank doesn't need it and they only have ABS bulkheads. With their parts it means 3/4 hose barbs and flex tubing down to the sump in 3/4. Seems like quite a bit of loss not to mention I'm not so much a fan of flex hose and clamps

Most important questions for me are:

1. With pump config, does it matter if the return bulkheads are 1.25 or 3/4 once you split the output?
2. What would be the appropriate s80 bulkhead size to go with considering pump output size?
3. Does it make sense to hard plumb returns to the bulkheads or better using flex?

I've seen the opinion that hard plumbing can put stress on the bulkheads, makes sense. I've also read that it can increase vibration noise. Makes sense. But considering a 1.25 output it seems like 2x1.25 returns to the tank aren't' needed as the output is split between two lines. That and I would just rather not use flex hose if it's practical and feasible to hard plumb it.

My list of wants if reasonable are:

1. Above all, long term reliability
2. Max flow to get as close to rated as is reasonable
3. Do it with rigid if reasonable

I figure with a 200g tank on Triton, a 3100gph pump should eventually get me close to the 10x I need, after rock maybe 170 x10 or so. So I could stand some loss, I just want reliability and rigid for cleanliness. This is my last tank so I gotta do it up right.

 

[ndrwater]

If you are having the tank made, have the manufacturer drill for whatever size plumbing you want. If they balk, offer to supply the bulkheads. That way if you want Sch 80 1 1/4" returns, you have it.
Honestly, Sch 80 is overkill. 80 is rated for much higher pressure which we usually don't encounter in the hobby. Many people use it because it's "prettier" that the normal white Sch 40. There ARE color options for Sch 40, but... They can be pricey, and not at all pressure rated.
Any time you size down plumbing, the flow rate drops precipitously. There are flow rating charts available on line

 

[Titleist]

Having tank made. I don't think they care about drilling holes for bulkheads, if I give them the diameter they should do it. More a matter of hard plumbing returns into the tank, what size is best for a pump output of 1.25 split two ways. Seems like would be ok at 3/4 if you split 1/25 into two the flow would be cut in half or so and at that point does 3/4 reduce it much after?

 

[ndrwater]

I oersoperso run flex on the return lines. Less vibration. Hard for the drains.
Any time you have a change in diameter in plumbing you create head pressure. Sounds like you have ample flow and have considered head loss, but.. going from 1 1/4" to 3/4" times two may be difficult to find fittings without having to reduce and then reduce again.
If doing a reef, you honestly don't need a ton of flow running through the sump. Flow is generally handled with wave makers or gyre pumps.
Now if using something like SeaSwirls or something similar, I would hard plumb and use the largest diameter plumbing you can reasonably match to the return pump.

 

[road_runner]

one thing I have learned the hard way is it's all about the pump.
Do not get in to the self blame game, get yourself a pump that perfrom well against head pressure, you will not care about the plumbing(to an extent).
I faced some issues with my dc pump where the performance was like 75% reduction in the advertised flow, at first the vendor blamed my plumbing which is standard 1" bean animal.
So I started doing testing to compare diffrent pumps apple to apple on the same plumbing.
I realized how important the pump perf4omance against head pressure where my "high end" dc pump suffered 75% flow reduction, other pumps like ac pumps(syncra) and dc pumps like RD3 and abyzz showed double to triple the flow on the same plumbing.
So my advice, instead of nitpicking the plumbing, apply common sense in your plumbing(reduce corners and splits) but invest in a good return pump.
On the drain side, 1" or even 2 3/4" should give you at least 1000gph drain gravity pressure. So as long ad your return pump push good flow rate through the return pipe you should be good.
Remember good return flow is 5 to 10 times water volume, so for 200g tank, 1000gph flow rate is more than sufficient.
Now the trick is to make sure your pump push this flow rate.
Do not trust the advertised flow rate, these are all with zero head pressure. Get a pump that is tested or measure the flow rate yourself like I ended up doing.

 

[Titleist]

Starting off set up for Triton on this tank. If I decide the change later I already have a good sump and pump then. Im figuring trying to get at least 2000 gph from it to align with the 10x recommended flow for Triton. I know not everyone gets 10x but I figure if I can get closer by using the right plumbing coupled with something that also looks well done I'd be ahead of the game. For in tank flow I'll just be doing ecos or something else to get it going. I'm not planning on acros for at least the first year anyway so I don't need to go max flow in tank yet, just trying to stay within Triton spec.

 

[road_runner]

Curious what is your pump...and how do you know you will get 2000gph?
Reason why am asking, you state that your pump is 3100gph, I hope ots not vectra L1. If it is, you are in for a surprise

 

[Titleist]

Thought was dragon 3 at 3100. With the sump underneath the tank and minimal runs I was hoping to get 2k from it.

 

[road_runner]

Thought was dragon 3 at 3100. With the sump underneath the tank and minimal runs I was hoping to get 2k from it.

Then you good.
Cause though at first I did not want to mention the pumps I tested but it was indeed my vectra that proved to be aweful at head pressure. While RD3 performed flawlessly. I ended up getting RD3 80 which gave me 1300gph.
I tested RD3 100 and it gave solid 1800 to 200gph on my plumbing(I have a split on my return line which reduce flow a bit but I was good).

 

[Titleist]

Going back and forth about 1 or 2 pumps I pretty much settled on 1. But theres good argument for 1 each return too, like one down other keeps the flow going rather than dead. The overflow is rated at 3600 so I could be good with 2 sized properly.

 

[road_runner]

Going back and forth about 1 or 2 pumps I pretty much settled on 1. But theres good argument for 1 each return too, like one down other keeps the flow going rather than dead. The overflow is rated at 3600 so I could be good with 2 sized properly.

Yup, I kind of regret not getting the 100..it was like 70$ diffrence ha ha.
RD3 is such a good option. Abyzz was just too much and I did not buy the argument that pay double just for 10 years warranty.
So ticked I wasted like 500$ on vectra L1, but lesson learned.

 

[Titleist]

That's a shame too. I love the integration of the pump and features, but after the reliability stories and head pressure issues I went elsewhere. If I do 2 it wont be 1800 in 2 rd3. It may end up varios if I change to 2.

 

[road_runner]

That's a shame too. I love the integration of the pump and features, but after the reliability stories and head pressure issues I went elsewhere. If I do 2 it wont be 1800 in 2 rd3. It may end up varios if I change to 2.

Btw during my testing I noticed that what RD3 state in the data sheet is pretty accurate.
They give you the plots of the flow rate under diffrent head pressure(height).

 

[samnaz]

Have you considered leaving the return line at 1.25”, and run it straight from the pump to the tank? I’m not sure dual return outlets would be much more beneficial or necessary. Splitting the return seems counterproductive if you think about all the extra fittings, elbows, horizontal runs, all that head loss... on top of cutting the pipe diameter in half. Only a headloss calculator can tell you for sure what configuration will meet your flow requirements.

What’s the length of this 200g?

 

[Titleist]

Tank is 84 long.

I need to get this started, I guess the most pressing issue is whether to have them drill for s80 bulkheads or just go with hose barb inputs at 3/4.

What hardware or locline can hook up to 1.25 s80 on the inside of the tank?

 

[jtl]

Bear in mind that hose barbs are notoriously restrictive.

 

[road_runner]

Tank is 84 long.

I need to get this started, I guess the most pressing issue is whether to have them drill for s80 bulkheads or just go with hose barb inputs at 3/4.

What hardware or locline can hook up to 1.25 s80 on the inside of the tank?

Well if you have the option I would say go with the larger drill. But again if your pump is RD3 I have tested it on my 3/4" barb loc line plumbing and I get 1800 to 1900gph solid. I have multiple junction on my plumbing. Which means if you have good plumbing you can get above 2000 for sure

 

[road_runner]

The problem is that at the end of the day you need to go through loc lone hose on the return, the biggest size on these are 3/4". This is the standard. That's why I keep saying invest in pump and avoid funky plumbing

 

[Titleist]

That's what I thought, I'm not seeing 1.25 locline anywhere so I'm holding off until I can find a way to hook up 1.25 s80 bulkhead to a locline nozzle in the tank.

If I do 2 pumps I was thinking 2 varios 8, but then I found a review where customer service blamed a pump issue on plumbing. If I go with two pumps I'd rather go with 2 varios than 2 rd3.... just to keep the pumps cheaper than the rank itself :/

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Anyone here hard plumb their return pump? I’m interested in this because I don’t want the connection to fail. My current set up has some vinyl in between pump n pipe,dead silent but I’m about to double the pump size. And I have lost connection on the vinyl part while the pump was running once or twice. Water everywhere haha