ANOTHER spike...possible loss of fish again

fyrfytr

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Back in December/January I set up my first saltwater tank after spending a few months trolling the boards here and other places. 36gal bowfront with rock and sand that came from 2 seperate local reeefers (sand was free, rock sold for $1/ lb) who were gettig out of the saltwater hobby. Long and short, after putting some fish in the tank I thought I was doing well. Happened across a sale being done by a board sponseror and I picked up some sand and rubble very cheap. Thought this would be a good addition to my tank and would help me become more reef ready since I should get some good coraline alge build up. Silly me, didn't take into account the spikes...had what I thought was a small nitrogen spike and a corrosponding nitrate spike and lost my fish...the snails and peperment shrimp survived though, so I guess it was enough of an amonia spike to do my lil friends in.

FASTFORWARD

I re-cycled the tank. Got me a new friend for it (p.russelli lionfish) about 4 weeks ago and things have been great. He has been a pain to try and stick train so we have gone with rosie reds while we also work on stick training. Tuesday my wife commented that he looked more red then normal, which is true he was more reddish but he was breathing fine and acting fine. Wednesday he was yet more red, did not want to eat, and seemed to be breathing different like it was more deeper. I did a water check and the amonia was up to about .25 (where it had been hovering at 0 or just slightly above) and the nitrates were very high (if i recal, 15ish where they had been down to almost 0). Worried more about the amonia I went up to the store and got some amonia lock in order to try and get it safer (was close to bed time for me and I was to my exhaustion point) for him and then work on things in the morning when I got home. When I got up about 4 hours later he was on his side on the bottom breathing very hard. I quickly got a dinner plate and somewhat securely divided my 10gal tank that I have been using to QT my wifes impulse puffer purchase (now allowing me to set up a 55gal tank for one of the two of them) and put him into the tank. When my wife went to bed a few hours ago she said he was still alive, upright, but breathing hard still.

Over the last 3 weeks I have done nothing different to the tank other then instead of droping Spectrum into the tank for the sanils and shrimp I started dropping krill (not the actual krill, but the prepared in a can bites). My wife is convinced that since the last spike happened about the same time that there is something in the rock/sand that is slowly leeching out...but wouldnt it leech out over time and I would see a spike coming? I tested a few days ago and saw no increase in amonia and a little in the nitrates, but I was starting to get some alge growth on my rocks so I attribited it to that and the biological filter starting.

*side note, wife googled the red coloring. The coloring comes from the increased nitrates, so water change is in hand for me, athough we still are not sure on the cause of all of this.
 
It would help if you would share your tank setup... ie. what are you using for filtration? are you running a skimmer? etc... and what are your water parameters?
 
Sorry. 30ish lbs of rock and 30ish lbs of sand. I say ish cuz I bought more then I used, so I dont know the exact amount that is truly in there. Running a Lees Medium HOB skimmer (air driven). I will check the water when I get home
 
Any amount of ammonia means your tank is still cycling. It takes months to properly season a tank for messy fish like a puffer and a lion fish. The waste from either one of those guys can set a new tank cycling. You need to be patient. I would not add a lion to tank for 6 months.
 
Mute point. ..came home and he is dead in the qt. Think its time to quit disappointing my 3yr old and get out od the saltwater hobby. Second "batch" of fish I have managed to kill since I started

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I would just let it continue to cycle for another month or two. I don't think you ever fully cycled.


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So I know exactly what is going on I believe. Your tank is still young and you also bought used sand. Used sand has a lot of dead bacteria, and can also have trapped nitrates. It will take quite a long time for your tank to completely cycle. You want your ammonia and nitrites to be zero and your nitrates to be super close to zero. Also, a lion fish produces a very large bioload. A bioload is the amount of waste the fish secretes. You're not giving the tank enough time to build up the bacteria colonies it needs to eat the fish waste effectively. Don't quite, just take it a lot slower.
 
I believe what you're saying to a point, but before I introduce a lion my nitrates for almost at 0 and my ammonia was at 0. During all of my testing there never was a significant or really even noticeable increase in nitrates or in ammonia. Nothing seemed a mess or out of whack until we noticed the reddening of the gills. I know that Lions create a bigger bio-load, so I added some more snails to the CUC just after getting him established

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No, Ggator is right. You need loads of bacteria established to keep those kinds of fish. Maybe double the LR over what you have and feed it hard to keep a huge colony of LR so it can handle the bio-mass. I have do doubts your tank is polluted from the lion fish feedings and waste. A young tank is a chemistry balancing act. You are overloading one side of the scale before the other can have time to catch up.

Just slow down and enjoy. Much of the point is to have a hobby that brings us back to a healthy reality in our too fast hustle world, and to have something to look at that lowers our stress and blood pressure. SLOW DOWN! ENJOY the ride... don't try to push the envelope.. let the tank set the pace... .

We want to control everything and we want it now... not with a reef tank... nope... and this is what is so great about them... and for me is the hardest part.
 
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here's the thing....even if you had 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites/nitrates ...that doesn't mean that you have tons of bacteria....it means you have just enough bacteria to handle the ammonia under light or no load. it takes time to produce a large enough bacterial colony that can handle larger bio loads. so with the additions you mentioned the bio load quickly outpaced the size of your bacterial colony.

don't give up....just start small and be patient.
 
There are bacteria additives that may help through your cycling issues. Instant ocean bio-spira, seachem stability, microbe lift special blend, bright well micro bacter 7, etc... But I'm not sure that's really your problem. You mentioned having peppermint shrimp in the tank that survived? Inverts are much more sensitive to spikes in ammonia nitrite and nitrate then fish. I'm thinking you may have gotten a sick fish which got the other fish sick and so on. Did any of the fish going in get qt'ed?
 
The cycle is, as I have observed over the decades, the hardest part for most new people to the hobby. I know it use to be for me for sure.
My new rule, is after the cycle is complete to add only the CUC, and than wait another month before adding the first fish. I than add one fish per month so as to allow the filter to adjsut to the new load before moving it higher.
As a wise reefer put it "Only bad things happen fast in this hobby"
 
That is the confusion point for the few people that I've spoke with, in both cases where I have lost fish there has been both and ammonia and nitrate spike... But I have yet to lose an invert. With the first spike and fish loss it was just 10 nails, this time it is probably 15 to 18 snails with 2 peppermint shrimp and a chocolate chip starfish.

The fish that have been lost did not go through a QT. First time around I didn't think it was necessary, what I've read is there are as many people who do as their are who don't. The store they came from carry a small amount of copper in their tanks to ward off some things. After the death I kept the tank fishless about 6 weeks. The lion I didn't qt because he was the only fish in the tank

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Curious, very curious......
I will have to think and do some research on this......
 
Curious, very curious......
I will have to think and do some research on this......

There are a few people who are thinking the same. The manager at one of the LFS (the same one where I get my from) sorta stood there dumbfounded when I was explaining things to him. None of anything makes a lot of sence here, with the exception to the theory that its the old substrate coming back to haunt me. Theoretically the lionfish should have eaten the shrimp...the chocolate chip star should have been after the snails...none of this has happened. Nitrate spikes from less then 5 to like 20 and no inverts die or show any ill effects.....things are not adding up
 
I believe what you're saying to a point, but before I introduce a lion my nitrates for almost at 0 and my ammonia was at 0. During all of my testing there never was a significant or really even noticeable increase in nitrates or in ammonia. Nothing seemed a mess or out of whack until we noticed the reddening of the gills. I know that Lions create a bigger bio-load, so I added some more snails to the CUC just after getting him established

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Your levels may have been zero but your tank is so young, the bacteria to keep the levels at zero aren't colonized yet. So, when you added a fish that has a very large bioload to the tank, it crashes the tank easily because it's not fully stable yet.
 
Your not listening. We keep telling you. Your tank was young. You say your nitrates and ammonia were zero yet you have spikes. The spikes come from over feeding and waste. You also say "near zero", it needs to be zero. Spikes mean the tank is not done cycling. Take the lion for example, the waste generated from just one feeder fish could send the tank cycling again.

You also mention a cleanup crew. They are no different than a fish. They eat and produce waste. The answer is simple, too big of fish too fast. Let it sit there for 6 months before you add something so messy. A lion and a puffer are two of the worst fish you can find.

Seriously, don't quit, but you must slow down and start simpler. Add a kole tang after you ammonia, and NITRITES are zero. Not nitrates, nitrites. Then leave it for 6 weeks then add something else. Then wait a couple of weeks. Watch the amount you feed. A kole is a perfect after cycle fish. They eat micro algae that grows on your rocks and glass and therefore require very little food.

Lastly, most fish, need only a very small amount of food a couple of times a day. A good rule of thumb is to think of their stomach as the size of ONE of their eyes. That is it. Most fish need only be fed every other day. Lion fish once a week. You can make this complicated if you want, you can wish it was something that it is not, but I guaranty you, take it slow. If you do you and your kids will find this an educational and interesting hobby.
 
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