fishmonkey
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Just wondering if I should dose a little phosphate during my fishless cycle. I will probably do that anyway after the cycle when I put in chaeto.
Any benefit to dosing phosphate during fishless cycle?
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Sounds like a breeding ground for cyano. Too much phosphate in relationship to nitrates are a likely cause in cyano, just higher nitrates will be no issue, and it's usually not that bad initially after a cycle. Your chaeto will mop that up right after a cycle, that's actually how I ship the uglies all together. If you are using live rock you will get phosphate and if you are feeding the tank you will get phosphate. If you are using dry rock, depending on the rock, you might still get phosphate.
Wasabiroot
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You'll have plenty of phosphate coming up shortly if you feed regularly. IMHO not needed.
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fishmonkey
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Ok I was just wondering if the bacteria would benefit from eating phosphate
Wasabiroot
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It greatly depends on if you have the bacteria in your biome capable of metabolizing phosphorus. It's very possible, but also these will be introduced naturally anyways. I'd rather my biome learn to eat the phosphate my inhabitants release before I consider supplemental dosing.
Plenty of bacteria have the pathways to make this work, but that doesn't mean they'll want to right now. I see what you're getting at and I think it's a cool idea, but I don't think it's worth the effort.
Plenty of bacteria have the pathways to make this work, but that doesn't mean they'll want to right now. I see what you're getting at and I think it's a cool idea, but I don't think it's worth the effort.
Wasabiroot
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Also: macroalgae typically uptake nitrates and phosphates in proportions roughly along 10:1 or even 15:1. So making sure there are SOME nitrates will help you more . Just my opinion though...some might disagree
Wasabiroot
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That was my assumption. Dosing w/ammonia usually
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fishmonkey
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Dry rock new tank yes
ZoWhat
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Curious why you would consider this (?)
Thinking it would better the system? Speed it up?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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It may be useful.
Jay mentions it here:
www.reef2reef.com
Jay mentions it here:
Product for reducing nitrite?
I know there is lots of conflicting information as to whether or not nitrite has an adverse effect on fish livelihood. I am currently cycling a Waterbox 50.3 after about 18 days my ammonia read 0 on my Red Sea test but still registering high nitrites. (Nitrate around 25/30) I dosed 2 250 ml...
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I grow mixed algae cultures and observe algae growth with NO3/PO4 ratios anywhere from 1 to 50 (the range I studied), though at varying growth rates. The 10:1 you mention, for me 10 ppm:1 ppm, promotes the strongest growth but 10:0.2 (50:1) does very well too.
Algae are not constrained to consume certain ratios of nutrients nor is the optimum ratio the same for all algae. A better model to keep in mind is that the more nitrate present for a given light intensity up to some maximum, the stronger is the algae growth and this growth rate is maximized when the optimum amount of PO4 is present. This means after a certain nitrate concentration, adding more won’t affect growth. Ditto for PO4. This also means you can have high PO4, but with little or no nitrate, algae growth will be weak.
ZombieEngineer
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Chances are there is enough bound up in the dry or live rock you used to fuel the initial fishless cycle. Once you add fish and start feeding them, that will be a source of additional phosphate to keep the bacteria happy.
Wasabiroot
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Yeah, makes sense. I was trying to generalize, hence the roughly. Interesting information
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I performed growth experiments with BioSpira nitrifying bacteria and possibly saw a tiny PO4 effect. I doubt PO4 addition has ever been shown to be important in cycling a new aquarium. If you do add PO4 and there is aragonite sand or rocks present, PO4 will be adsorbed. Will it be avaible to the bacteria? Since the PO4 effect is so small, I doubt anyone has ever observed this.
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fishmonkey
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Yea I think I read that bacteria eat phosphate somewhere.
ZombieEngineer
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You are correct. Nitrifying bacteria do require a small amount of phosphate, this is why bottled bacteria manufacturers recommend against starting the early tank cycle with a refugium, or GFO/phosban bit to instead wait until you visibly see algae growing.
Spare time
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Yeah I think it only might be an issue if someone cycled with a phosphate remover or something similar in and the tank was extremely phosphorus limited
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Yeah phosphate is only an issue for a very small number of tanks.
Although all living beings require phosphorous (literally DNA and RNA both contains phosphorous), for the most cases phosphate addition is not needed. For saltwater aquariums despite using RO, it seems like whatever little amount may be in salt mixes, etc. would be plenty.
For freshwater aquariums, enough phosphate seems to come through tap water that it never is an issue. The only time it may matter is if people use RO water to set up freshwater aquariums, which even after remineralization (depending on the method) may not contain enough phosphorous for the nitrifiers to utilize.
But yeah. That's why generally one only needs to dose ammonia when fishless cycling - most of the crucial elements (carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen) can be obtained from the water (specifically the water itself, and inorganic substrates such as carbon dioxide), while nitrogen can be obtained from not least of all the ammonia.
It's also why you don't even need to add fish food or anything like that - nitrifiers are generally known to be obligatorily autotrophic and cannot use organic substrates as a carbon source anyways.
Although all living beings require phosphorous (literally DNA and RNA both contains phosphorous), for the most cases phosphate addition is not needed. For saltwater aquariums despite using RO, it seems like whatever little amount may be in salt mixes, etc. would be plenty.
For freshwater aquariums, enough phosphate seems to come through tap water that it never is an issue. The only time it may matter is if people use RO water to set up freshwater aquariums, which even after remineralization (depending on the method) may not contain enough phosphorous for the nitrifiers to utilize.
But yeah. That's why generally one only needs to dose ammonia when fishless cycling - most of the crucial elements (carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen) can be obtained from the water (specifically the water itself, and inorganic substrates such as carbon dioxide), while nitrogen can be obtained from not least of all the ammonia.
It's also why you don't even need to add fish food or anything like that - nitrifiers are generally known to be obligatorily autotrophic and cannot use organic substrates as a carbon source anyways.
