Any controllers with proportional control?

[overclockwise]

I'm shopping around for a controller but I can't seem to find any that has any kind of proportional (nevermind PID) control. Instead of a hard of set boolean rules, I want a controller to be able to react flexibly from sensor input.

For example, If I have an APEX with the PMK and controllable lights (WXM or 0-10v), I wish to be able to program a setpoint of say, 100PAR from "PAR_Sensor_1" and have APEX ramp lights up or down according to the sensor reading.

My goal is to dim a T5 fixture and have a controller ramp it up to the setpoint PAR. This will allow me to get consistent lighting as bulbs age and to save some money in the long run by only replacing the bulbs once the controller cannot ramp them up to the setpoint anymore.

Similar to the above, I want the enter a setpoint of say, 600GPH on the return line and have the controller react according to the flowmeter and manipulate the return pump if it goes above or below.

Other than industrial PLC and PID controllers, is there something that exists for consumer use?

 

[GoVols]

@overclockwise

Have no clue , but would like to tag along for the ride.

 

[reefwiser]

Wow people have trouble affording the basic aquarium controller. Getting them to sell out for a PID unit will make people faint. I program ALLEN Bradley PLC’s for 30 years now just don’t think the tech and programming and the lighting controllers and pump units would be affordable for even saltwater hobbyist.

 

[BCSreef]

Wow people have trouble affording the basic aquarium controller. Getting them to sell out for a PID unit will make people faint. I program ALLEN Bradley PLC’s for 30 years now just don’t think the tech and programming and the lighting controllers and pump units would be affordable for even saltwater hobbyist.

Ed,
Have you looked at the "pulse-variable" function on your GHL P4? I know is is not an industrial quality PID algorithim, but not a bad approximation. I use it for kalkwasser addition and temperature control. In essence, it pulses then pauses the kalk pump and the heaters at preset intervals of my choosing, until it reaches the hysteresis limit. From then on, it will pulse in ever shorter increments keeping the pause constant as it approaches the control set point (nominal value). I hope that makes sense.
Bob

 

[overclockwise]

Wow people have trouble affording the basic aquarium controller. Getting them to sell out for a PID unit will make people faint. I program ALLEN Bradley PLC’s for 30 years now just don’t think the tech and programming and the lighting controllers and pump units would be affordable for even saltwater hobbyist.

I think the hardware is there but the software is lacking. The PMK already measures and logs PAR and the Apex can already control lights via WXM or 0-10v. How hard can it be to reprogram it to suport proportional control to vary lights via 0-10v according to readings from the PMK?

As far as cost - I'm not looking to shell out for more than what a GHL or Apex sells for. I'm looking for hobby grade stuff. The stuff you mentioned are built for absolute reliability with support to back it up and that's where the cost comes from. For comparison, I work in IT administering Cisco equipment- they are 95% identical to your plain home router but some of the CRS units we have cost more than people's houses. Thier cost comes mostly from direct support from Cisco and the incredible reliability.

Regardless, I don't think cost should be an issue at all. I don't need or want to assemble together an electrical panel with an Allen-Bradley PLC and a bunch of DIN mounted stuff. I just want some basic processing from a cloud-connected $800 Apex. Even Cobalt Aquatics figured out PID is the way to go on temperature control. Last I saw they cost the same as some of the titanium heaters without controllers. I could build an aquarium heater around a Eurotherm 2132 for around $80 in used parts and it will run circles around any aquarium controller based heater but wouldn't it be nice if we finally got some actual programable controllers on the hobby level?

 

[reefwiser]

Problem is hobbyist barely know how to use feature set they have now. It will scare away a bunch of people.
The questions one see’s and problems hobbyist have with controller getting more complex programming is not a direction they are looking for. They want dead simple programming that they don’t have to fuss with. The Vertex cerebra and fishbit where controllers that have been introduced to satisfy this desire and have failed due to various tech hurtles.
Perhaps some day your PID loop controller will come about. Then I can go around fix all them as they are not a set it and forget it type of thing. I wouldn’t have a job if they worked perfectly

 

[TheEngineer]

You can do that easily with a reef angel.

 

[overclockwise]

Problem is hobbyist barely know how to use feature set they have now. It will scare away a bunch of people.
The questions one see’s and problems hobbyist have with controller getting more complex programming is not a direction they are looking for. They want dead simple programming that they don’t have to fuss with. The Vertex cerebra and fishbit where controllers that have been introduced to satisfy this desire and have failed due to various tech hurtles.
Perhaps some day your PID loop controller will come about. Then I can go around fix all them as they are not a set it and forget it type of thing. I wouldn’t have a job if they worked perfectly

That's more of a problem of UX isn't it? For example, even the cheapest smartphones will dynamically adjust its backlight as it senses ambient light to maintain visibility of the screen. That's similar to what I'm asking for-There's no reason why a device like the Apex can't accept more advanced programming while keeping the current set which is basically just On and Off.

As for electronic systems breaking - that's job security for us

You can do that easily with a reef angel.

Hmm, the RA seems to be based on an Arduino which I love but the hardware seems a little dated. At this point, I think the best way to go for me is the Reef-Pi because I have experience in Linux.

 

[TheEngineer]

They just released a new hardware set. Not sure what there is to be dated though Mine has been running flawlessly for quite a while.

 

[Lousybreed]

I agree. It would be nice to be able to have a loop that holds your manifold pressure constant by adjusting the speed of your pump. I wish we had VFD for the bigger pumps. The idea of controlling lighting via PAR levels is awesome.

As for it being too hard for aquarists, I think we are a smart bunch and will figure stuff out if the benefits outweigh the learning curve.

I believe Apex could do it of they knew it was a want and need from us.

 

[overclockwise]

I agree. It would be nice to be able to have a loop that holds your manifold pressure constant by adjusting the speed of your pump. I wish we had VFD for the bigger pumps. The idea of controlling lighting via PAR levels is awesome.

As for it being too hard for aquarists, I think we are a smart bunch and will figure stuff out if the benefits outweigh the learning curve.

I believe Apex could do it of they knew it was a want and need from us.

They have the hardware in place and the software team (Fusion looks great!) in place. I think it's just a matter of time.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I only have experience programing an Apex, so I can't comment on other brands, but you are right - the programming language is fairly rudimentary and really only allows for boolean type logic. I think this is partially because many/most people want a simpler language and partially because the Apex programming language initially evolved years ago when the controller processor and memory capabilities were much lower than they are now. I can't say for sure, but I believe the programming is actually runtime interpreted.

This doesn't answer your question but I would point out that there are some flaws in your PAR adjustment idea. Neptune makes a PAR meter, but the problem with leaving anything like that submerged for a long period is that you have to make sure it stays clear of algae, sediment, etc, otherwise you could very easily ramp up the intensity of your lights higher that you want. If you're worried about light degradation, I think you would be better off measuring it in a predetermined spot once a month or so. I don't know of a way to do it directly, though.

For the pump/flow question, you may be able to sort of do it with a COR pump. You can easily control the speed of the pump in the programming (i.e. If Output XZ = ON then 50 to set the pump at 50%).
You could have a series of these that would look at the flow and make some adjustments, but you can't do anything like incrementally increasing the speed by 10% until the desired flow is achieved.

 

[User1]

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. More or less the story with the Reef Angel. They did release a newer version earlier in the year but having owned one for the past 5 years I saw no reason to upgrade. Open source more or less so a platform for you to consider. Much like the reefi you noted. Now having said that I did recently move to a more closed system of the Apex but I actually still use the RA for lighting control. It handles DIY LED's a lot better with regards to PWM support and I have a lot of code to handle coral acclimation and storms. Something that isn't possible, or easy to do, with the Apex. Which is pretty sad actually.

 

[overclockwise]

If it isn't broke, don't fix it. More or less the story with the Reef Angel. They did release a newer version earlier in the year but having owned one for the past 5 years I saw no reason to upgrade. Open source more or less so a platform for you to consider. Much like the reefi you noted. Now having said that I did recently move to a more closed system of the Apex but I actually still use the RA for lighting control. It handles DIY LED's a lot better with regards to PWM support and I have a lot of code to handle coral acclimation and storms. Something that isn't possible, or easy to do, with the Apex. Which is pretty sad actually.

I mostly looked at the amount of space for scripts. I don't have a lot of experience with Arduinos but I'm pretty good with Linux so ReefPi sounded better. I do like that the Reef Angel is basically a mature product, however.

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

So sorry if I sound really dumb, computer programming etc is not a strong point of mine. But since the software is lacking, can’t one write a simple algorithm and code it to do what they want? In general that’s all they are is coded digital numbers of 1 and 0 I think lol. Again I may be way off and if so I’m sorry, but thinking mathematical, it should be possible to rewrite the software code sequence, like in genetics we can change the dna strand to get different results. Do these device have locks to prevent people from enhancing their digital footprint?

 

[overclockwise]

Hello,

So sorry if I sound really dumb, computer programming etc is not a strong point of mine. But since the software is lacking, can’t one write a simple algorithm and code it to do what they want? In general that’s all they are is coded digital numbers of 1 and 0 I think lol. Again I may be way off and if so I’m sorry, but thinking mathematical, it should be possible to rewrite the software code sequence, like in genetics we can change the dna strand to get different results. Do these device have locks to prevent people from enhancing their digital footprint?

You're completely correct especially the last part. Software is often first written in a "higher" language. These are the words you hear like "C++" or "Python". Their purpose is so humans write down the program in an understable and editable format using plain spoken words. To make the program usable, that text is then fed into a compiler specific to the type of computer it's going to run on. It translates the "higher" language into a "lower" language the machine can understand and execute (zeroes and ones). Since compiling basically encodes the software, it's not possible to know which language, version of the language and which compiler was used. That makes it almost impossible to "uncompile" back into the higher language and makes it secure. This also hides the innerworkings of the program and most programmers now put a lot of effort into not exposing the program as a layer of security. This is done to protect you and I as exposing that could expose details about it's users (the internet is shared).

When you hear stuff like "closed source" and "open source" - it's referring to the original written program. Open source meaning the author of the program has made the uncompiled program available to be seen so one could make alterations. Closed source is just that, the source written program is not available and a closely guarded secret. Sadly, this is the case with many devices which prevents them from being re-programmed.

I hope that was simple enough to be understood. I left out hacking a program. It's possible but the biggest risk is that it could break the hardware.

 

[User1]

I mostly looked at the amount of space for scripts. I don't have a lot of experience with Arduinos but I'm pretty good with Linux so ReefPi sounded better. I do like that the Reef Angel is basically a mature product, however.

Fully understand. The entry point isn't that expensive but it can add up over time if you start buying some of the expansion layers. Like I mentioned with my recent tank upgrade I actually went with the closed system of Neptune / Apex. It actually amazes me that the VDM does not or cannot factor in a acclimation feature for corals and/or new fish. I forget who in the Reef Angel community put it together but the Arduino and RA is able to do it with ease. Then factor in storms, weather, and checking geo locations for sunrise and sunset to control pumps I often wonder why I made the switch...

In any case I hope you find a system that does what you are looking for. I think you are in the advanced hobbyist category so I'm sure you will find what you are looking for. If not will make your own