Any success with large angel trios?

[Zionas]

According to my books, the medium sized angels (Chaetodontoplus, Regals, Apolemichthys) that aren’t Genicanthus exhibit haremic (usually trios) as well as pairing behavior. Has anyone had success with more than a pair of angels from these genera? (Say 3 Regals, 3 Blue Lines, 3 Goldflakes etc.)

 

[Sharp]

I do not have firsthand experience but have seen it work. I think with angels such as these you need to approach it similarly to when keeping groups of tangs. QT well, get them eating and fat, introduce together. With angels its important to reduce aggression, especially during first introduction as they can stop eating just to spite you! Take this with a grain of salt tho and hopefully someone more knowledgable will stop by.

 

[Zionas]

Thanks a lot! I’m really referring to 1M 2F harems like many have done with their Centropyge dwarf angels. To my knowledge Pomacanthus and Holacanthus only form pairs. I’m curious because the books say angels like these three genera can not only form pairs but trios.

The part on these pages from Scott W. Michael’s books mention “harems” and “trios”.

Sorry for the bad picture quality. I took pics of these pages using my phone’s camera. For example with the Blue Line the author says “occasionally forms trios”, it’s the “occasionally” that makes me worried if I ever try.

Whether a pair or a trio (if safe to do so) I will introduce them together, as juveniles. I was also thinking 3 could be safer than 2 as it spreads the aggression a bit, just like many people’s experiences with dwarfs.

 

[Just a Wrasse.]

I do not have firsthand experience but have seen it work. I think with angels such as these you need to approach it similarly to when keeping groups of tangs. QT well, get them eating and fat, introduce together. With angels its important to reduce aggression, especially during first introduction as they can stop eating just to spite you! Take this with a grain of salt tho and hopefully someone more knowledgable will stop by.

Agreed, but you have to be very careful at picking fish as there could always be the odd one out!

 

[Sharp]

Is there any particular reason for wanting a trio over a pair? Its hard to give advice without first hand experience with keeping pairs or trios of angelfish. From my perspective the benefit for a trio is that it spreads aggression across 3 fish rather than one picking on another. But that can also backfire - they might pair up and beat up the odd one out. As mentioned by Warrasell. If I were doing this and had a tank large enough to support it. I would have multiple pairs or trios of these angels and a couple tangs to spread aggession out amongst multiple fish.

This is something I am doing right now with my tangs, keeping a slightly overstocked tank can really help reduce problems with aggression. But it means more work with water changes and potential for stress related disease. I digress. There are always pros and cons for everything, you just have to weigh them up and hopefully get some advice from someone more knowledgeable!

Fergus

Agreed, but you have to be very careful at picking fish as there could always be the odd one out!

 

[Sharp]

Something else to note, is when compared to larger angels such as an Emperor or Queen angelfish, these "medium sized ones" are typically less aggressive and more shy - My regal and majestic angelfish were quite passive and well behaved. I know I am going against my own advice saying this, but I actually had to watch out on the tangs beating up the angels. You will have to judge the temperament of your own fish. That said, if you do get a trio and one gets beat up on, temporarily taking out the most aggressive angel should "reset" the social hierarchy and may result in a more peaceful outcome.

Fergus

 

[Zionas]

Just in case you can’t see the pics clearly:

Goldflake: “Singly, in pairs, or small groups.”

Flagfin: Same as above.

Regal: “Although adults are observed singly or in pairs, the typical social unit is a single male and one or more females (usually 2-4).”

Blue Line: “Adults are found singly, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in trios.”


From Kuiter and Tanaka:

1. Flagfin: “Swims singly, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

2. Goldflake: “Occurs USUALLY solitary, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

3. Regal: “Adults in pairs and OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

4. Blue Line: “They occur in pairs or form a small harem.”


This is from a Taiwanese study about captive breeding Blue Lines (from 12 years ago): “A single male dominates a harem of two females.”


ntour.ntou.edu.tw:8080/ir/handle/987654321/50212

There’s another Taiwanese study that confirms this species shows hermaphroditism and goes a bit into the spawning patterns but doesn’t really mention social structure.

Maybe it’s just an issue of semantics with the books I have.

 

[Sharp]

Just in case you can’t see the pics clearly:

Goldflake: “Singly, in pairs, or small groups.”

Flagfin: Same as above.

Regal: “Although adults are observed singly or in pairs, the typical social unit is a single male and one or more females (usually 2-4).”

Blue Line: “Adults are found singly, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in trios.”


From Kuiter and Tanaka:

1. Flagfin: “Swims singly, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

2. Goldflake: “Occurs USUALLY solitary, in pairs, or OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

3. Regal: “Adults in pairs and OCCASIONALLY in small groups.”

4. Blue Line: “They occur in pairs or form a small harem.”


This is from a Taiwanese study about captive breeding Blue Lines (from 12 years ago): “A single male dominates a harem of two females.”


ntour.ntou.edu.tw:8080/ir/handle/987654321/50212

There’s another Taiwanese study that confirms this species shows hermaphroditism and goes a bit into the spawning patterns but doesn’t really mention social structure.

Maybe it’s just an issue of semantics with the books I have.

If you don't mind me asking, do you have a particular species of angel(s) you want to group up? I am sure their temperament and your rate of success would change based on each subspecies.

 

[Sharp]

In regards to the wording of your book and research. I would imagine it is just semantics. They probably cant just make outright claims as these things are never that simple, there are always exceptions, which they could get called out on, if they use more certain phrasing.

 

[Zionas]

With dwarf angels it’s because from what I’ve gathered, while they do form pairs, they’re at their most natural in trios / harems where the male spawns with 2 or more females. With a pair I’m also worried that if one dies after a while for whatever reason, I’ll be left with a single specimen that’s probably male by then, and if I want to form a pair or trio again I want to get 1-2 small juveniles or females. With a trio if one dies I’ll still have a pair. I’m also inspired by guys like OrionN (if he’s still here) who always keeps Flame Angels in harems whenever he can.

With large angels it’s for the same reasons as well as simply looking better (rule of thirds). And as you mentioned the diffusion of aggression, and how some members believe that it’s either a single or 3+ to start with for better odds (no pun intended).

 

[Zionas]

I am most keen on Goldflakes or Blue Lines, with an edge to Blue Lines (Chaetodontoplus). I investigated captive Bred options for both, and the Goldflakes from Bali Aquarich are disappointingly the hybrids with Flagfins.

 

[Sharp]

I am most keen on Goldflakes or Blue Lines, with an edge to Blue Lines (Chaetodontoplus). I investigated captive Bred options for both, and the Goldflakes from Bali Aquarich are disappointingly the hybrids with Flagfins.

Goldflakes I believe can struggle to adapt to aquarium life, which I am sure you know. I believe Bluelines do better. If you do end up going with a group, I would qt separately and have a variety of foods, mussels and live blackworms are particularly good for angels I have found. Let all 3 gain enough weight before they meet each other that if they do stop eating for a couple of days (or week) from the stress of being in a group, they do not die.

You could have a divider in a single QT tank if multiple are too expensive or not feasible

Thats about all the advice I can give. Good Luck!

 

[Sharp]

With dwarf angels it’s because from what I’ve gathered, while they do form pairs, they’re at their most natural in trios / harems where the male spawns with 2 or more females. With a pair I’m also worried that if one dies after a while for whatever reason, I’ll be left with a single specimen that’s probably male by then, and if I want to form a pair or trio again I want to get 1-2 small juveniles or females. With a trio if one dies I’ll still have a pair. I’m also inspired by guys like OrionN (if he’s still here) who always keeps Flame Angels in harems whenever he can.

With large angels it’s for the same reasons as well as simply looking better (rule of thirds). And as you mentioned the diffusion of aggression, and how some members believe that it’s either a single or 3+ to start with for better odds (no pun intended).

If you do have a pair, and one dies. You could pull the survivor out and introduce a new one (if you do want a pair again), let it adapt to aquarium life, then a couple weeks later introduce the old angel.

 

[Zionas]

Thanks a lot! I’ll be getting the Bluelines captive Bred from a place in Hong Kong. They’re tank Bred in the south of Taiwan. Poma Labs would be another option (though the biggest jerk here will be international shipping).

On Reef Central about 10 years ago there was also a member who had a trio of Bluelines (FlameAngel88) and it worked for him until the biggest one died from refusing to eat. The one in the middle didn’t take long to change into a male and they continued as a pair.

 

[Sharp]

Thanks a lot! I’ll be getting the Bluelines captive Bred from a place in Hong Kong. They’re tank Bred in the south of Taiwan. Poma Labs would be another option (though the biggest jerk here will be international shipping).

On Reef Central about 10 years ago there was also a member who had a trio of Bluelines (FlameAngel88) and it worked for him until the biggest one died from refusing to eat. The one in the middle didn’t take long to change into a male and they continued as a pair.

Amazing. I am glad I could help. Please look for other advice too tho. Its good you are looking into captive bred options!

Fergus

 

[Zionas]

For sure! What about your setup? Is it a big one?

(It’s cool to have Aussie reefers, hehe. What’s the hobby like down under?)

 

[Sharp]

For sure! What about your setup? Is it a big one?

(It’s cool to have Aussie reefers, hehe. What’s the hobby like down under?)

HAHA I fell in love after snorkelling up around some of our reefs. I am in a weird spot with my setup. Havent been able to progress anything in the past year because of lockdown. In the next couple of days I am picking up a couple of tangs, angels and wrasse, lockdown finally ended! Tank is never big enough right! Theres always a bigger fish or more room for coral. I am quite excited which is silly i know. Whats your tank like?

I did find out that we have an Aussie fish called a Lennardi Wrasse which I just discovered that is apparently super expensive in the US, which is why I never looked at it. Where I live its only $100, I have seen them go for upwards of $1500 over there. My lfs is getting one in for me on Wednesday.

 

[Zionas]

Yeah definitely true! One can always go bigger! Though I doubt I’ll ever have a mega tank. I’m currently without a tank due to the pandemic as I’m waiting to go home to China which is where my life is. That’s why I mentioned Hong Kong, I live right across the border from Hong Kong. You must be truly blessed to have such great reefs in your backyard. Western Australia has some nice reefs too.

I’ve heard of the Lennardi Wrasse. Beautiful species though not the easiest to keep! Good luck! What are the dimensions of your tank?

What’s your access to captive Bred fish and aquacultured corals?