Anyone Have Trouble Controlling Pumps with Relays?

[JDCagley]

I am a controls engineer. I am not using Apex or any other boxed controller. I am using an industrial grade controller (ALC, my employer) and professionally wired system ( I was an electrician for almost 20 years prior to my leap into controls).

My problem is this - I set up a HOA switch and repurposed it for a "feed" mode - in essence - it shuts off the power to my vectra M2 pumps for x amt of time that I choose from my front end (currently 6m30s). Then the relay closes, power is restored and the pumps run again. This "works" well for me as I can do what I need from 1 location and not have to open an app on my phone to initiate 'feed' mode or if I am not home, have someone else have to manually stop 2 pumps via buttons under the tank.

Last week, 1 vectra failed - giving me the red/green stall error. Have cleaned the pump, disassembled completely, same issue. Other pump is fine and no issues but was wondering if there are others using relays to open (kill power) to ecotech products? Id so, have you encountered any issues? I do not want to keep using "controlled power outages" to these pumps if it is going to hurt them.

Thanks

Janson

 

[JDCagley]

I should add, these pumps are only 3 months old.

 

[Derrick0580]

Bump, I would like to know as well because I have just been hitting the kill power switch on my american dj power strip to my vectra instead of opening the app and using feed mode or stopping the pump that way. Hopefully this doesn’t hurt them and you just happened to get a bum pump.

 

[rwreef]

Can you share a schematic of the relay circuit that is controlling the pump?

 

[JDCagley]

There is no schematic. It is a 2 pole relay that opens both the 120VAC and the Neutral. Fast acting industrial relay. I am not concerned about the wiring of the circuits - this is a solid, fully tested electrical system. My concern is if ecotech products like/don't like having power removed from them - either power outages or controlled outages as in this case.

 

[JDCagley]

Bump, I would like to know as well because I have just been hitting the kill power switch on my american dj power strip to my vectra instead of opening the app and using feed mode or stopping the pump that way. Hopefully this doesn’t hurt them and you just happened to get a bum pump.

Your method is basically what I am doing - only automated via a controller. It is nothing more than a "light switch" function - on/off. How long have you been killing power to your pumps in this manner?

 

[Derrick0580]

Your method is basically what I am doing - only automated via a controller. It is nothing more than a "light switch" function - on/off. How long have you been killing power to your pumps in this manner?

Roughly a year

 

[JDCagley]

Roughly a year

I wish I was getting more feedback here on who else is using relays or, as you do, just turn them off. I find it hard to believe that simply "unplugging" a device would cause this failure.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

AC or DC Pumps? Did you oversize a bit for Starting Amp. Draws. On the Other side, a way over Amp rated relay will carbon up the contacts, due to the arc no getting hot enough to burn the carbon off. Pump will eventually be running on low voltage. Are your pumps Wet Rotor? Vinegar, will kill these pumps, you should use Citric Acid to clean them. Also generators will kill DC Pumps.

 

[JDCagley]

AC or DC Pumps? Did you oversize a bit for Starting Amp. Draws. On the Other side, a way over Amp rated relay will carbon up the contacts, due to the arc no getting hot enough to burn the carbon off. Pump will eventually be running on low voltage. Are your pumps Wet Rotor? Vinegar, will kill these pumps, you should use Citric Acid to clean them. Also generators will kill DC Pumps.

The relays I am using are Rib relays #Rh2B-2L. They are max rated 10A with an inductive rating at 7A max load on start. The pumps are vectra M2 so they are 120vac and dc controlled pumps. I have not (yet) ran a generator on this system. I am debating between UPS system over generator for winter (I live in an area that suffers power outages often).
as far as my relays, I have used these without issue on thousands of devices - small motors and actuators without issue. It’s a standard industrial grade relay for smaller amperage devices that we use professionally on equipment that costs a lot more than these pumps! My main concern was that turning off the pumps in this fashion was more of an issue for the driver than anything. I currently monitor all voltages in/out of all controllers and at the load side. I also monitor all amperage’s of all devices (for DO/DI proof thus creating alarms for items not running.)
The pumps pull typically around 1.4 A at my normal run speed (84%). That, of course, is dependent on the line voltage that drops at peak ac cooling times of the day. My line voltages fluctuate from 118-128VAC dipping in the heat of the day times. This is not due to drain on my system - this is the line voltage from power company.
I have not detected any variance greater than 0.1% from line side to load side of vac.

 

[JDCagley]

RH2B-UL not 2L

 

[ingchr1]

I wish I was getting more feedback here on who else is using relays or, as you do, just turn them off. I find it hard to believe that simply "unplugging" a device would cause this failure.

I don't have these pumps, but I would imagine there has to be numerous others cycling power to them with thier controllers (e.g. Apex, GHL, Hydros) for feed and maintenance modes.

 

[HuduVudu]

Vectras are DC and therefore don't run natively on 120. The power bricks aren't nice and aren't really designed for the power to be on and off. You have inrush etc .. on the regulators and if the system isn't really designed for this then bad things. Anecdotally I was turning a Radion on and off at the switch and I finally blew the power supply. I am lucky it was just that.

If you are going to do this type of thing I wouldn't use DC pumps for it I would use AC instead they are going to be more amenable to it. You will just have to deal with PFC because they are inductors.

 

[JDCagley]

I have tried swapping controllers and power supplies - the problem is 100% the pump. I have to agree ongchr1 above that there has to be many people cycling power. To me, it would seem odd that a device can’t handle inrush voltages at this scale. We are not dealing with 3P480v pumps! These are consumer grade devices that can and do experience normal power outages. I think of every pc etc that uses power bricks and being unplugged multiple times a day possibly and a pc “dying” and have to believe that these pumps should be able to handle 2x a day “unplugged”. Just my opinion, but also why I wanted some feedback from others!

 

[JDCagley]

I would also think they’re 24vdc output (I’m sure I read somewhere the m2 was 24V) from the bricks is regulated at all times especially for any spikes. That would be typical for any power supply. I haven’t designed electronic circuits since I was in college, but I recall using diodes and other “things” to regulate output regardless of input.

 

[gbru316]

You doing anything to suppress flyback?

 

[JDCagley]

As in back flow? No - and that was a concern also. However, I did not ever read on these pumps to protect against it. All these “wonders” make me wonder if this is truly why their battery backup system is pushed? Is it really for tank protection - or pump protection?

 

[HuduVudu]

These are consumer grade devices that can and do experience normal power outages.

But not every day. They are not designed for that.

I think of every pc etc that uses power bricks and being unplugged multiple times a day possibly and a pc “dying”

PC's use very expensive power supplys that produce multiple voltages. They are designed to keep voltages stable and taut their regulating ability in the specs. They also do not like power outages, and will blow taking their very expensive electronics with them. Hence the rise of brands like APC.

I would also think they’re 24vdc output (I’m sure I read somewhere the m2 was 24V) from the bricks is regulated at all times especially for any spikes.

It is 24 and the current is stupid that is why the bricks are so large. They need to be able to accomodate full load from the pump.

I recall using diodes and other “things” to regulate output regardless of input.

Bridge rectifiers aren't really used in high end power supplies. The manufacturer of a power supply needs to design for regular power loss. Needless to say this costs more in engineering and sourcing and manufacturing. People are not willing to pay the price for this.

Long and short cutting the power in and out is not going to do well with DC equipment.

 

[JDCagley]

But not every day. They are not designed for that.


PC's use very expensive power supplys that produce multiple voltages. They are designed to keep voltages stable and taut their regulating ability in the specs. They also do not like power outages, and will blow taking their very expensive electronics with them. Hence the rise of brands like APC.


It is 24 and the current is stupid that is why the bricks are so large. They need to be able to accomodate full load from the pump.


Bridge rectifiers aren't really used in high end power supplies. The manufacturer of a power supply needs to design for regular power loss. Needless to say this costs more in engineering and sourcing and manufacturing. People are not willing to pay the price for this.

Long and short cutting the power in and out is not going to do well with DC equipment.

Well, I may be sol as where I live I can count on at least one power outage per day that I have no control over.
I emailed them months ago asking if they could consider “ever” incorporating a way to talk to their devices other than through an app. There are many serial connection protocols that would be very nice for this exact issue - not everyone does everything with 1 brand. This problem sorted itself out in controls of industrial equipment when Trane, Carrier, Siemens etc realized building owners don’t buy JUST their equipment and controls protocols became “open” to building management software to ensure a smooth operating system of any manufacturer. The idea of opening an app to stall pumps is ridiculous to me - especially when I’m not home and need someone else to do it for me.

 

[HuduVudu]

Well, I may be sol as where I live I can count on at least one power outage per day that I have no control over.
I emailed them months ago asking if they could consider “ever” incorporating a way to talk to their devices other than through an app. There are many serial connection protocols that would be very nice for this exact issue - not everyone does everything with 1 brand. This problem sorted itself out in controls of industrial equipment when Trane, Carrier, Siemens etc realized building owners don’t buy JUST their equipment and controls protocols became “open” to building management software to ensure a smooth operating system of any manufacturer. The idea of opening an app to stall pumps is ridiculous to me - especially when I’m not home and need someone else to do it for me.

If only this industry could find the light.

I am not holding my breath though, and EcoTech as a brand hasn't played very nice with other companies customers be danged. EcoTech used to integrate well with Apex but the big egos came out and that is why we can't have nice things.

Not sure if your Vectra is plumbed in or out but either way there are solid AC alternatives, and truth be told I am tired of the useless invoation for the sake of their bottom line. It really doesn't help me but it sure does help their profit margins. I have been going back to some of the old school solutions and I am surprised to see that many still exist. For external plumbs Iwaki is hands down the best most reliable AC pump and you can turn it on and off to your hearts desire.