Anyone hear of...

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

...changing just one small thing on a reef tank and crashing the tank?

Here is the story. I have a 20gal nano with PC lighting and stunner strip supplements, 25lbs of live rock CPR BakPak 2R skimmer, AC30 with Chemipure elite. Vaious LPS, a couple select SPS, polyps (read as mushrooms, zoas and palys) and two fish (Starry blenny and a Cherub Angel) standard CUC (nassarius snails hermits and money cowries). This past week I installed a refugium (approx 3.5 gallons) on my tank, dropped in some chaeto (which I recieved from another member here) and the whole tank has taken a nosedive. Nothing else was changed, parameters were fine;

Ph- 8.2
Alk 9
nit, phos, ammonia all non detectable using API tests
SG 1.024
Temp 76.5deg with a (1deg drop to 75.2deg at night)
Ca- 450

The tank was doing beautifully and I figured I'd do (on Thursday) a small upgrade for added nitrate processing and filtration by adding the refugium with some rubble and chaeto to help get rid of a small amount of cyano I had been fighting with for the last two months. About an 10 minutes after starting the pump on the refugium every coral I have closed up. I figured this was due to something "new" and left it for the day. Friday everything was still closed of after the lights had been on for about an hour. I watched it carefully for a while and noticed the corals staring to slime up (not something they do normally in my tank unless something is "off") so a 25% water change was done.

I gave it another 24 hours (Saturday) and noticed one of my SPS was completely bleached and another was receding horribly. After doing the battery of tests, as I was out of water at this point I ran up to Meijer and grabbed 10 gals of distilled water and did two more water 25% water shanges, one Saturday evening and one Sunday afternoon. By Sunday evening the softies had started to open up but the LPS (a couple favia, hammer and frogspawn) were still shrunk pretty hard and the SPS Are almost completely fleshless. Headed up to Blue Fish Aquarium this evening after work to pick up some more "pre-mix" water (17.5 gallons) and I will be doing a HUGE water change to hopefully get rid of the last of whatever it is that polluted the tank.

I do understand that any reef can be very fragile and any single change can have drastic consequences but I truly didn't see this one coming. I don't know how many corals are going to make it through this one but I'd like to give them the best chance possible. Any ideas are greatly appreciated. All of your collected experience is highly respected and greatly needed at this point.

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

Sorry... read that Alk as carbonate hardness... been a long weekend

glb · Aug 12, 2013

That has happened to me too! I changed the lights and had to move some coral around because they were closed. I gradually removed the bio balls and ceramic rings which were filthy and replaced them with purigen, chemipure and denitrate. The tank should have been much happier but I've noticed that some of my zoas are receding. All of my parameters are good. I haven't been able to figure it out. This is the frustrating part of the hobby, when you're not sure what went wrong and how to correct it.

mcarroll · Aug 12, 2013

If you had been battling cyano, things may not have been all that well to begin with I suspect. Still not sure how that explains the strange reaction to turning on the refugium, but undoubtedly it made its contribution.

Maybe some kind of residue was on the refugium? Something from manufacturing, or maybe even soap left over from cleaning?

I would keep up the water changes, replace your chemical media, and consider running a small-sized Poly Filter to help with removal of any potential contaminants.

Just FWIW I don't think many of those changes were really needed....sounds like you had more than enough rock, no nitrate issue, but a small problem with phosphates as the persistent cyano has been telling you. In fact if you wanted to be technical, I think you could argue that the phosphate issue and presence of cyano indicates you already had too much nitrate processing capacity.

I would start eliminating the source of phosphates asap and maybe otherwise consider returning the tank back to "normal". There's a good chance the phosphates are just due to buildup of detritus within the sand or rockwork (worth investigating!)....a smaller chance you're (also?) introducing phosphates with your source water.

Hope this helps and I hope everything pulls through!

-Matt

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

mcarroll said:
If you had been battling cyano, things may not have been all that well to begin with I suspect.

I understand this thinking but I had gotten it down to just a couple spots on the sand bed. It wasn't even so much as film as coloring. It was more of an asthetic than anything else... I had just about won the "battle"... lol

mcarroll said:
Maybe some kind of residue was on the refugium? Something from manufacturing, or maybe even soap left over from cleaning?

I too thought of this, which is why the constant water changes right now. I just gave it a quick rinse when I recieved it and will be thoroughly scrubbing all equipment I put into use. And I use no soap... only vinegar

mcarroll said:
I would keep up the water changes, replace your chemical media, and consider running a small-sized Poly Filter to help with removal of any potential contaminants.

Will be doing this but I also need to realize that care should be taken as it is possible to change the water too often, which would, in effect, sterilize the tank.

mcarroll said:
Just FWIW I don't think many of those changes were really needed....sounds like you had more than enough rock, no nitrate issue, but a small problem with phosphates as the persistent cyano has been telling you. In fact if you wanted to be technical, I think you could argue that the phosphate issue and presence of cyano indicates you already had too much nitrate processing capacity.

I would start eliminating the source of phosphates asap and maybe otherwise consider returning the tank back to "normal". There's a good chance the phosphates are just due to buildup of detritus within the sand or rockwork (worth investigating!)....a smaller chance you're (also?) introducing phosphates with your source water.

Like I said... more of a trying to get the last of the cyano gone thing than anything else. As for introducing phosphates... I have been using pre-mixed salt water from Blue Fish Aquarium for about two months now. Prior to that I had been getting RODI from my LFS (not to be named) and the cyano had been going away with introduction of the money cowries and nessarius snails, a couple lights out cycles and water source change.

mcarroll said:
Hope this helps and I hope everything pulls through!

-Matt

Thanks Matt, I appreciate it.

Gladfelter · Aug 12, 2013

I didn't see that you tested for ammonia. If the chaeto was trimmed or it didn't respond well to the lighting it.could have started to die off a bit and released an ammonia spike.

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

Gladfelter said:
I didn't see that you tested for ammonia. If the chaeto was trimmed or it didn't respond well to the lighting it.could have started to die off a bit and released an ammonia spike.

Mole said:
nit, phos, ammonia all non detectable using API tests

I thought of that myself... even with the move from shipping I thought that may be an issue which is why I tested.

Gladfelter · Aug 12, 2013

Mole said:
I thought of that myself... even with the move from shipping I thought that may be an issue which is why I tested.

Cool beans. It's strange all right. With my 29 I'm always afraid of changing stuff because the balance is so delicate. Good luck man. Hopefully its balancing out.

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

Me too... most of the zoas, palys, gsp and some of the mushrooms were starting to open up last night... hopefully that's a good sign. The Hammer and Frogspawn were still closed up pretty tight, The Meteor Shower was looking pretty sad but it looks like the other SPS just got bleached out badly...

Been racking my brain for what it could have been... been in talks with the guy I got the chaeto from and he says he didn't do anything wierd before shipping it... just cut it and bagged it up... I have no reason to doubt him on that... I'm hoping it was just some contaminant from the refugium (not really "hoping", but at least it would give me a direction) that is getting worked out through water changes.

One other thing about it though... the fish haven't been acting wierd (gulping at the surface like they were trying to get oxygen), as I've seen with an ammonia spike... which again is why it's so strange... usually there's something to give a clue as to what's going on.

mainereefer · Aug 12, 2013

sounds like there was a chemical in the refugem you added. did you clean it before you added it? did you rinse

Mole · Aug 12, 2013

That's all I can think of also... apparently my rinsing skills need some work... :squigglemouth:

I just hope my housekeeping skills don't hurt the critters too much more.

kes · Aug 12, 2013

most of the time, though, we reefers change multiple things simultaneously and when something goes awry, it's difficult to pinpoint the culprit. very frustrating for sure.
In your case, just a single change is enough to tilt it one way and leads to undesirable results. Hope you will fully recover fast. ;-)

mclevenger10 · Aug 12, 2013

changing something small on a nano tank is a much bigger change than we think, or compared to a 150 gallon tank.

Eienna · Aug 13, 2013

Hey, did you rinse with RODI or SW, or with tap water? I'm thinking chlorine/chloramine here.

Keep in mind that everything's connected, and it doesn't take much to upset the balance in a tank that size. That said, I couldn't see why adding rubble and chaeto would cause that unless there was some kind of contaminant.

Mole · Aug 14, 2013

Eienna said:
Hey, did you rinse with RODI or SW, or with tap water? I'm thinking chlorine/chloramine here.

Rinsed with RODI but, talking to the guy at Blue Fish Aquarium I may have figured out what I did wrong. since I got the chaeto Thursday afternoon and the refugium on Friday (shipping for both items just wound up that way) I dropped part of the chaeto into the old hang on filter that I had running and put the balance into the skimmer. There was so much that I had to put some of it into the intake side of the skimmer where the skimming actually takes place. The reaction the chaeto had with that much oxygen may have been the major culprit in creating the "poisons" in my tank. Hindsight being 20/20, all I wanted to do was keep it wet for another day and wound up crashing my tank.

I'm still keeping an eye on everything and still have a couple water changes to do but, it looks like I may have lost only a couple pieces. Will update later.

Thanks for all the constructive input. I truly appreciate it.

Mole · Aug 27, 2013

So... here we are two weeks later and it seems the tank is starting to recover. Frogspawn and hammer starting to open up again, Meteor Shower Cyphaestra regaining some of it's flesh and color, most of the zoas and palys fully opened up (just some minus their "lashes"). I lost two snails 9one money cowrie and one nassarius, one of the two sexy shrimp, two small pieces of purple rim green monti and one other sps (can't remember the name). Tank parameters are still constant and I still have no idea (other than the chaeto in the skimmer) what it could have been unless there was copper in the refugium itself as residue which didn't come out by a simple rinse. I promise I'll get some pictures up by this weekend.