Anyone notice lanathum toxicity?

csb123 · Mar 13, 2018

I know reefers have run into trouble with lanathum because phosphates were lowered too quickly. I was wondering if anyone has noticed adverse effects from it’s use, especially if used chronically, independent of excessively lowered phosphates?

One of my Triton test showed elevated lanathum levels some time after I dosed it. The recommendations from Triton were six 15% water changes over six weeks. At the time, I noticed no ill effects on my reef.

I certainly would like to use lanathum more, as the expense of GFO is hurting my pocket book.

Syntax1235 · Mar 13, 2018

following as my last triton test came back with a little LA and the same recommendations of water changes.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 13, 2018

Some folks have reported issues with lanthanum and tangs, which, if real, presumably is very unlikely to have anything to do with phosphate levels..

For example:

http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/phosphate-rx-killed-my-yellow-tang.301231/

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 13, 2018

I add 6 drops a day to my reef been doing it for about 3 months now have not seen any ill effect it actually helped me out a great deal with an algae problem that I had. I have never ran an icp test so I can’t speak on that part.

rkpetersen · Mar 13, 2018

If you use lanthanum chloride and your phosphorus level goes to 0.000, you're almost certainly going to have excess lanthanum ion in your circulating water. I've never used it in a DT myself, and am disinclined to just on the basis of a general desire to limit concentrations of unusual ions in my reef water. GFO seems intuitively safer. However, for my new tank setup, I did treat all the dry rocks with lanthanum chloride in a Brute, before changing the water out and then cycling them in the same container. I'll be curious to see if my first Triton/ATI results show any residual lanthanum carried over into the DT, when I send samples off in a couple of weeks.

Tanglover11 · Mar 13, 2018

I use it, works great but if you have Zebramosa Tangs use sparingly and dose in small amounts dilluted with R.o. Water spread over many days. I use an IV bag and drip into a 5 micron filtersock and watch the Tangs respiration. It doesnt seem to affect my Achilles, Powder Blue or Regal Tangs only my Yellow Tangs.

Dr. Reef · Mar 13, 2018

I have used it for 2 yrs now. 1oz in 1 gal of ro-di water. Dosing 5 ml once a week. Keeps phosphates right at 0.01. now that I have gotten rid of all the phosphate and don't need lanthanum that much, normal water changes of 3 gal per day will bring lanthanum levels back to where they need to be even if they were elevated. Either way I never noticed any negative effects.

csb123 · Mar 13, 2018

rkpetersen said:
If you use lanthanum chloride and your phosphorus level goes to 0.000, you're almost certainly going to have excess lanthanum ion in your circulating water. I've never used it in a DT myself, and am disinclined to just on the basis of a general desire to limit concentrations of unusual ions in my reef water. GFO seems intuitively safer. However, for my new tank setup, I did treat all the dry rocks with lanthanum chloride in a Brute, before changing the water out and then cycling them in the same container. I'll be curious to see if my first Triton/ATI results show any residual lanthanum carried over into the DT, when I send samples off in a couple of weeks.

My Triton test showed elevated lanathum despite PO4 being 0.025.
As to excess unusual ions, I’m wondering if La is as nontoxic as Li, which is elevated in a lot of our tanks and seems harmless.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 14, 2018

csb123 said:
My Triton test showed elevated lanathum despite PO4 being 0.025.
As to excess unusual ions, I’m wondering if La is as nontoxic as Li, which is elevated in a lot of our tanks and seems harmless.

I would have expected lanthanum (and lithium) to be largely nontoxic/low toxicity at low levels. I expect it gets into calcium carbonate skeletons and fish bones in place of calcium (it does that in humans, but isn't necessarily a clear "problem"). It is widely dosed to people with kidney disease to bind phosphate in their GI tract (in competition with two of my products to do the same thing, although mine do it better

).

The issues that folks see with tangs (if real), might have nothing to do with free lanthanum ions, but instead might be the particulates that form.

Tanglover11 · Mar 14, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
I would have expected lanthanum (and lithium) to be largely nontoxic/low toxicity at low levels. I expect it gets into calcium carbonate skeletons and fish bones in place of calcium (it does that in humans, but isn't necessarily a clear "problem"). It is widely dosed to people with kidney disease to bind phosphate in their GI tract (in competition with two of my products to do the same thing, although mine do it better ).

The issues that folks see with tangs (if real), might have nothing to do with free lanthanum ions, but instead might be the particulates that form.

My experience with Lanthanum has been great, but it definitely affects my Yellow Tangs. They become lethargic with an elevated respiration and tend to congregate in one area of my Aquarium. They stop grazing and just hover for a while until I filter it out. Even with a 5 micron sock it still affects them. I more or less gauge how long to dose on their behavior then stop and do incremental amounts spread over a week until Po4 is in range

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 14, 2018

Tanglover11 said:
My experience with Lanthanum has been great, but it definitely affects my Yellow Tangs. They become lethargic with an elevated respiration and tend to congregate in one area of my Aquarium. They stop grazing and just hover for a while until I filter it out. Even with a 5 micron sock it still affects them. I more or less gauge how long to dose on their behavior then stop and do incremental amounts spread over a week until Po4 is in range

FWIW, if I observed that in my tank, I wouldn't keep dosing it.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 14, 2018

I have three tangs purple,sailfin and hippo have not noticed any change in behavior. They graze all day and eat regular and is all over that tank as usual.

chipmunkofdoom2 · Mar 14, 2018

Have you considered dosing organic carbon (vinegar, vodka, sugar, NoPox) as well as nitrates? Organic carbon dosing removes much more nitrate than it does phopshate. However, if you keep replenishing the nitrates by dosing sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate, your phosphates will drop without your nitrates dropping too low.

This method might not be as quick as LaCl2, but it should certainly work.

SEMA · Mar 14, 2018

I have used lanthanum before in coral aquaculture systems that receive heavy feedings and have accumulated tons of organic waste over time. I was dosing through a auto doser that the effluent went down a main drain that happens to be about a 6ft run for plenty of contact time, then 10 micron socks.

Why i stopped. Socks would clog VERY quick (10-12hrs). Sand like particles started to accumulate in the sump (after 3 months), therefore lanthanum was either needing more contact time (reacting after it passed socks) or 10 micron was not sufficient filtration. It also worked well when P04 was above 0.10ppm, however slightly lower concentration of P04 caused me to increase my Lanthanum dose to further remove more P04 to 0.02-0.03ppm. I will say I noticed NO adverse effect from dosing Lanthanum Chloride and I wanna say there were at least 4 Tangs presant. I ran this method for over 6 months.

GFO is still easier to use, safer, more consistent, and I was more familiar with its effect on removal speed and how much ect. Now if your running 10,000 gallon commercial systems where your P04 levels can be elevated above 0.05 ppm, it might be worth it cost wise.

csb123 · Mar 14, 2018

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It has certainly deepened my understanding of La!

csb123 · Mar 14, 2018

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
. It is widely dosed to people with kidney disease to bind phosphate in their GI tract (in competition with two of my products to do the same thing, although mine do it better .?

Randy, what were your two products, and could they be used in a reef setting?

Jsieger89 · Mar 14, 2018

csb123 said:
Randy, what were your two products, and could they be used in a reef setting?

Great question

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 14, 2018

csb123 said:
Randy, what were your two products, and could they be used in a reef setting?

Renagel and Renvela are organic polymers (sort of like Purigen) that are optimized to bind phosphate in the human GI tract. But in seawater, the phosphate concentration is lower and the competing ions for the phosphate binding sites (chloride and sulfate) are much more concentrated.

So in the end, they do not do anything significant to bind phosphate in a reef aquarium.