you can easily add a float valve as the 2nd sensor or even add another top off kit and instead of using to trigger a pump, you can trigger it to turn off your skimmer.
Anyone reliably using Apex ATK?
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kinetic
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I've used a Neptune ATK for 5 months, worked perfectly out of the box.
I've had other Neptune OS-1 sensors fail on me, good thing I had failsafes. Neptune was very quick to replace it, no hassles at all. After getting a replacement I've never had issues again. I think you can get a bad copy of something, but once you get a good copy of the thing, it's very reliable.
I've had other Neptune OS-1 sensors fail on me, good thing I had failsafes. Neptune was very quick to replace it, no hassles at all. After getting a replacement I've never had issues again. I think you can get a bad copy of something, but once you get a good copy of the thing, it's very reliable.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I had a Tunze for several years, then got an ATK. If you aren't using an Apex, then I would go with the Tunze. The ATK has some firmware quirks that came make it troublesome for standalone use. If you have an Apex then it's more of a tossup. The Advantage of getting the ATK is you get the FMM with it, so you have 2 more ports for optical sensors, leak detectors, flow sensors, etc. It also lets you save an outlet on your EB832. If you're handy and electrically inclined, you could just plug the tunes into a wall outlet and use a 24V relay off a DC24 port to shut it off when needed, but that gets to be kind of a pain.0
I haven't found Neptune's optical sensors to be quite as reliable as Tunze's - they seem to require more frequent cleaning, but nothing drastic.
I like the PMUP pump better than Tunze's. It's quieter and more powerful, but either one does the job. I have heard of issues with the PMUP pump and kalkwasser, but Kalk is horrible on pumps, so I don't know that any pump will last a long time with it.
I agree with the person who said to dump the float valve - it significantly restricts flow and I don't think it's really necessary with the other failsafes.
I haven't found Neptune's optical sensors to be quite as reliable as Tunze's - they seem to require more frequent cleaning, but nothing drastic.
I like the PMUP pump better than Tunze's. It's quieter and more powerful, but either one does the job. I have heard of issues with the PMUP pump and kalkwasser, but Kalk is horrible on pumps, so I don't know that any pump will last a long time with it.
I agree with the person who said to dump the float valve - it significantly restricts flow and I don't think it's really necessary with the other failsafes.
I purchased an ATK at the end of August. I used it in stand alone mode as I do not have an Apex. It worked fine for a little over a week, then it started to go into alarm mode for reasons I could not determine. This would happen every two or three days. It was doing short fill cycles sometimes every few minutes although the firmware in it was supposed to require at least an hour to go by between fill cycles. After conversations with Neptune it was determined that I had a unit with incorrect firmware. It was firmware written for units used at trade shows where it would be impractical to wait an hour to demonstrate the units fill cycle. Several FMMs sold to the public were inadvertently loaded with this firmware. Since I do not have an Apex, they could not download the correct firmware, so they sent me a second FMM. It too had the incorrect firmware. So they sent a third FMM. It did not work at all. So they sent a fourth FMM. It apparently had the correct firmware as it would go an hour between fills, but ultimately it would go into alarm mode and shut down every two or three days. (They also sent replacement sensors, but that did not change anything.) Finally Neptune said that there was apparently something about my setup that was simply not compatible with the ATK. So I sent them back the extra FMMs and returned the entire unit. I now use a Tunze unit. I am giving you a very condensed version of this experience. I spent hours running tests to help them identify the problem. At their request I sent them pictures and videos of my setup. Not sure why it didn't work. The folks at Neptune spent a lot of time with me trying to solve the problem, but to no avail. It looks like a good concept. It just didn't work for me.
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[Cameron]
Active Member
Is it just me or should a $200 top off kit be flawless? I would use the current setup you have and tie in a Neptune I/O Breakout Box. Fraction of the cost and you already know it is solid.
ReeferRoo
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I have run an ATK since the NSI. Great piece of equipment. in terms of maint, I havent had to do much the RO water when it tops off cleans the float valve mechanism in standard configuration so no issues there.
Cleaning of optical sensors...basically anytime I put my hand in the sump, I just dip my fingers in the water and rub off any build up.
Only time I ever have issues, is if I forget to fill my 10 Gallon reservoir.
Cleaning of optical sensors...basically anytime I put my hand in the sump, I just dip my fingers in the water and rub off any build up.
Only time I ever have issues, is if I forget to fill my 10 Gallon reservoir.
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Joe Carioti
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I don't necessarily disagree, but part of the reason I started this thread was to determine *why* there have been negative reviews since they've been pretty vague. For example, issues like "kalk messing with the sensors/float switch" are completely moot to me... kalk ruins all kinds of different pumps and products.
The firmware issues I'm reading about are definitely concerning, but I work in the tech field and I'm sympathetic to how a small bug can explode into a large public fiasco (Apple's recent battery fiasco comes to mind). To me, it seems like the product is designed well with high quality parts and that's what I'm looking for. I don't mind updating firmware or working with support on initial quality issues as long as the unit is stable after that point.
And about the I/O box, that was my original plan but the FMM can be used for leak detectors, too. So the ATK provides 2 extra features (individual float sensors & leak detection) that I'm looking for over every other ATO.
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Joe Carioti
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Thank you, so this is probably why there are some reviews about needing to do a firmware upgrade out of the box. I'm quite surprised that you guys couldn't get it fully working... Did you use it in standalone mode 100% of the time?
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I agree, I would also expect a $200 topoff system to be flawless. Honestly, I expect anything I buy to be ‘as advertised’ and do what it says it’s going to do.
None of the issues I had with the ATK were hardware related; they were all programming/firmware issues, and it wasn’t that the software was bad. It was functioning as designed/programmed, but the problem was the programming options they chose can cause issues with some people’s setups and there is no way to change that with a stand-alone unit. The other issue was that they chose to design the system such that any time an error occurred, you had to manually reset it by unplugging the module.
Now, if you have an Apex controller, you have completely control over the entire system and can program it however you like, so all of the issues I had disappered instantly. The other advantage of the ATK is that even as a standalone unit you can add a leak detector and a low water sensor for the RODI reservoir, something unique among ATO systems. Also, if you have or are planning to buy an Apex controller, the ATK gives you 2 optical sensors, a PMUP pump and an FMM for cheaper than you can buy them separately.
So it’s not cut and dry - there are some potential issues and benefits of the ATK that all depend on your current and future plans.
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Joe Carioti
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Yep, you pretty much nailed it. If all these issues being reported are from people using it as a standalone unit, then I have no problem getting it. I'm buying it more for the individual pieces of hardware rather than the 'all-in-one ATO solution' part. As long as those individual pieces work well/consistently, then I'm willing to work through a firmware upgrade or two (I do this kind of stuff all the time anyway).
[Cameron]
Active Member
If you go the I/O box way, you can also do the Reef Octopus trick and put a float valve in the skimmer cup to cut the feed to skimmer pump when the cup is full/overflows.
I did some work for Neptune a long time ago. I have mentioned before I wish they would at least epoxy their boards. It would also be nice to see them using better quality capacitors and the like as well. In addition, they are a relatively small dev shop which leaves them prone to bugs slipping out. It is basically all hobby grade which is fine for the price point and the current market but I wouldn't put anything mission critical on one without a backup. I ended up using mine as a simple monitoring tool that controlled lights. Dosing, top off, etc in my system were all run by either simple designs or had redundancy through a dedicated controller.
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Joe Carioti
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That's not a bad idea, that would more appropriate for what I'm trying to achieve. A clogged skimmer line could cause an overflow and a sump float switch would never catch that... but a float switch in the skimmer cup will prevent an overflow 99% of the time. I might do both, to be honest...
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
FWIW, I posted a review of the ATK when I first got it here. Post 4 describes the issues I had in more detail.
Since buying the ATK I have also purchased an Apex controller and I use a combination of the optical sensors as well as the BOB. I actually moved the upper optical sensor from the ATK out of the bracket and over to the 2nd sump chamber, so when the water reaches it the skimmer turns off. Then I also have a float switch in the top of my skimmate jug so it will shut off the skimmer and send me an alarm when the jug gets full.
As a general tip when setting things up, float switches can be configured to be normal open or normally closed depending on how you have the the float oriented. Whenever possible, have them configured as normally closed, so the open condition triggers the event/alarm. That way if it inadvertently gets disconnected (or you forget to plug it back in like I did!) the controller will alert you that somthing’s amiss.
Also, if you dont’ already have a breakout box, I would look a the avast breakout box - better designed IMO.
Since buying the ATK I have also purchased an Apex controller and I use a combination of the optical sensors as well as the BOB. I actually moved the upper optical sensor from the ATK out of the bracket and over to the 2nd sump chamber, so when the water reaches it the skimmer turns off. Then I also have a float switch in the top of my skimmate jug so it will shut off the skimmer and send me an alarm when the jug gets full.
As a general tip when setting things up, float switches can be configured to be normal open or normally closed depending on how you have the the float oriented. Whenever possible, have them configured as normally closed, so the open condition triggers the event/alarm. That way if it inadvertently gets disconnected (or you forget to plug it back in like I did!) the controller will alert you that somthing’s amiss.
Also, if you dont’ already have a breakout box, I would look a the avast breakout box - better designed IMO.
dragon99
2500 Club Member
My experience with the ATK since last Aug.
I initially installed it on my main tank with Apex, but because I use limewater topoff, it started having problems pretty quickly with the sensors getting dirty (like a couple days).
I now have it installed on my nano tank in standalone mode (had to remove the float valve, that thing is ridiculously large). It works great.
My thoughts after a few months:
- optical sensors get dirty more quickly than on the Tunze. Maybe because they are horizontally mounted instead of vertical? I've probably cleaned the sensor on my Tunze 2-3 times in 18months, I've cleaned the ATK sensors 3-4 times in 6 months.
- no reset button, if you trigger an alarm the only way to reset the unit is to unplug it and plug it back in
- very little tolerance for water level change. Turning off my skimmer raises the water level enough to trigger an alarm. It's not instant, so usually I can take the skimmer cup off and clean it and put it back before the alarm goes off.
- can save a power outlet if you already have an Apex 2016. This is why I initially wanted it over the Tunze. Being able to power the PMUP directly from the EB832 was nice.
I would totally recommend it for anyone who has an Apex and isn't dosing Kalk. If you use limewater or want it standalone, buy the Tunze.
I initially installed it on my main tank with Apex, but because I use limewater topoff, it started having problems pretty quickly with the sensors getting dirty (like a couple days).
I now have it installed on my nano tank in standalone mode (had to remove the float valve, that thing is ridiculously large). It works great.
My thoughts after a few months:
- optical sensors get dirty more quickly than on the Tunze. Maybe because they are horizontally mounted instead of vertical? I've probably cleaned the sensor on my Tunze 2-3 times in 18months, I've cleaned the ATK sensors 3-4 times in 6 months.
- no reset button, if you trigger an alarm the only way to reset the unit is to unplug it and plug it back in
- very little tolerance for water level change. Turning off my skimmer raises the water level enough to trigger an alarm. It's not instant, so usually I can take the skimmer cup off and clean it and put it back before the alarm goes off.
- can save a power outlet if you already have an Apex 2016. This is why I initially wanted it over the Tunze. Being able to power the PMUP directly from the EB832 was nice.
I would totally recommend it for anyone who has an Apex and isn't dosing Kalk. If you use limewater or want it standalone, buy the Tunze.
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Joe Carioti
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That's all great information, thank you. The way you've set up your ATK with an Apex is pretty much identical to what I was planning. And I didn't plan on getting a BoB, but the skimmer cup killswitch sounds mighty useful.
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Joe Carioti
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Is this only when it's in standalone mode?
HolisticBear
Valuable Member
I have no experience with the ATK. But I run the Avast with a separate high + low optical sensor in my sump. These provide alerts + backup against ATO sensor failing.
If I replaced the Avast w/Tunze or ATK (dropping float value) I'd still keep my sump low+high water sensors for alerts and ATO backup.
The high water sensor also disables my skimmer + my in-tank gyre (sits high on the waterline)
