Anyone using probiotics?

[zed102]

I have been reading quite a bit about the use of probiotics in aquaculture facilities. There are many studies which show an improvement in growth rate, overall health, etc... Based on the success of these studies I decided to give them a try to see if I could notice an improvement in my fish. I quarantine all my fish and treat them to eliminate potential disease. The use of probiotics is intended to restore the bacteria in their gut. Unfortunately, the studies I have read are evaluating a wide range of bacteria’s and are not conclusive on which is best. Therefore, my plan is to use some of the more common ones studied and look for improvements in my fishes health.

This weekend I started adding a supliment intended for human consumption to frozen mysis containing L.Reuteri, L.Rhamnosis, L.Acidopholus, and Fos. I am feeding with this mixture every other day. If anyone is/has done this I would love to hear what has been working for you.

 

[Maritimer]

LRS foods; Reef Frenzy, Herbivore Frenzy, Fish Frenzy are three I use - already contain probiotics!

They're pretty popular for humans, and we humans do like to spoil our fish, so I'd expect to see them around more. I'll admit to being curious about whether the human cultivars you're dosing will do well in a marine environment . . .

~Bruce

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I also started using the LRS food because of the probiotics. The stuff is not cheap so I was only planning on going through one pack after I treated the tank for internal worms, but all the fish liked it so much it became a staple in my rotation...

 

[Humblefish]

@jsker might have some good input here

 

[jsker]

There is not much out there for probiotic fish health. Aquaforest has there probiotic reef salt and supplements more for the overall health of the total system the same goes for Zeovit, and I am not up on trition. It seems that these european products do have an effect and have some very successful growth and systems

Here is my rambling thought on products that are not naturally absorb through diet. Looking at the rate of cancer in humans, mainly baby boomers and a little earlier. In the 50's 60's and 70's there were a lot food flavor enhancers, preservatives, substitutes, and experimental product being used in food for consumption that were not regulated till the late 70' and 80's and taken out after extensive tests for consumption. Yes there is cancer in older humans before this time but not a rampant as it is now. Also with all the garbage, chemicals, and waste that is dumped into the water and the ocean.

That being said above, I am more prone to find a natural additive such as fiber to add to the diet such as ground peas, carrots, nori to the frozen to help with digestion. Also having enough space for the kids to swim around to exercise and not being sedative. Yes I do dose vitamins in my system and my system is happy. I have been dosing vitamin in my system since the late 80's and my fish have stayed and overcome some battles with some infections.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

When I read up on pro biotic for humans , and the billion products out there , it's anything that Bactria can easily feed on. Bread is a pro biotic.

So some folks have been feeding yeasts to the tank. With success I might add. But No one has studied yet that I've seen , if it's the yeast bacteria that is responsible , or what the yeast is on causing the improvement. I'd wager both.

So any food that contains non pasteurized gut bacteria , like Lrs or raw and live foods will add bacteria ,and the rest add things the bacteria like to eat. For fish, that's meat and alge.
For us it's bread , real saurkraut and raw honey.

 

[zed102]

Thanks everyone for your input. Unfortunately for now I am going to have to pu this on hold. I also added some microbacter7 to my tank before I left and have kicked off a bacterial bloom. I am not sure which is causing it, but once it clears up I will resume the probiotics.

 

[chefjpaul]

When I read up on pro biotic for humans , and the billion products out there , it's anything that Bactria can easily feed on. Bread is a pro biotic.

So some folks have been feeding yeasts to the tank. With success I might add. But No one has studied yet that I've seen , if it's the yeast bacteria that is responsible , or what the yeast is on causing the improvement. I'd wager both.

So any food that contains non pasteurized gut bacteria , like Lrs or raw and live foods will add bacteria ,and the rest add things the bacteria like to eat. For fish, that's meat and alge.
For us it's bread , real saurkraut and raw honey.

I like that term as much as you like the ratio / balance.[emoji35]

One of my favorites this week:

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Thanks everyone for your input. Unfortunately for now I am going to have to pu this on hold. I also added some microbacter7 to my tank before I left and have kicked off a bacterial bloom. I am not sure which is causing it, but once it clears up I will resume the probiotics.

MB7 has a potent organic carbon source. If it kicked off a bloom you have /had a high bacterial population in the water Colum.

I'd say there not a reason to use pro biotic.

 

[zed102]

Hey Salty, I would certainly agree with you on the tank being full of bacteria. This experiment though is about introducing specific strains of bacteria that have shown positive results in some aquaculture testing.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hey Salty, I would certainly agree with you on the tank being full of bacteria. This experiment though is about introducing specific strains of bacteria that have shown positive results in some aquaculture testing.

Thanks.

I do understand the experiment.
My comment was to say, I think it's full already. Lol

If you have a microscope available , you should see a shift in populations
As one struggles for dominance.
This is what has been documented in specific nitrifying bacterial strains.
Other bacterias that can be considered benificial is still highly controversial and actually being discovered daily.

Myself , I keep dr tims one and only on hand , I have the pribidio treatment , and I use natural sweater not treated with UV or ozones.

 

[Pacific Island Aquatics]

Probiotics are exceptionally helpful. I spent a bit of time researching their use in my Syngnathid culture, and the results were compelling. There is a wealth of data on the benefits of probiotics in aquaculture. it is likely important to use probiotic strains selected specifically for aquaculture, I use a product out of Norway. Probiotics are beneficial in numerous ways, but the primary benefit is the reduction of pathogenic bacteria through competitive exclusion.

I use probiotics in all my tanks, on all my fish, including my Sea Dragons.

 

[zed102]

Thanks for the info. Do you happen to have any information on the strains that are used these products?

 

[cpschult]

I have been reading quite a bit about the use of probiotics in aquaculture facilities. There are many studies which show an improvement in growth rate, overall health, etc... Based on the success of these studies I decided to give them a try to see if I could notice an improvement in my fish. I quarantine all my fish and treat them to eliminate potential disease. The use of probiotics is intended to restore the bacteria in their gut. Unfortunately, the studies I have read are evaluating a wide range of bacteria’s and are not conclusive on which is best. Therefore, my plan is to use some of the more common ones studied and look for improvements in my fishes health.

This weekend I started adding a supliment intended for human consumption to frozen mysis containing L.Reuteri, L.Rhamnosis, L.Acidopholus, and Fos. I am feeding with this mixture every other day. If anyone is/has done this I would love to hear what has been working for you.

FOS is a carbon source (sugar). Your bacterial bloom could be fueled by this. I would use LA for sure. The LRE is found in a lot of animal sources, I haven’t read about it being isolated from a marine source. Not sure about the LR either.

There is not much out there for probiotic fish health. Aquaforest has there probiotic reef salt and supplements more for the overall health of the total system the same goes for Zeovit, and I am not up on trition. It seems that these european products do have an effect and have some very successful growth and systems

Here is my rambling thought on products that are not naturally absorb through diet. Looking at the rate of cancer in humans, mainly baby boomers and a little earlier. In the 50's 60's and 70's there were a lot food flavor enhancers, preservatives, substitutes, and experimental product being used in food for consumption that were not regulated till the late 70' and 80's and taken out after extensive tests for consumption. Yes there is cancer in older humans before this time but not a rampant as it is now. Also with all the garbage, chemicals, and waste that is dumped into the water and the ocean.

That being said above, I am more prone to find a natural additive such as fiber to add to the diet such as ground peas, carrots, nori to the frozen to help with digestion. Also having enough space for the kids to swim around to exercise and not being sedative. Yes I do dose vitamins in my system and my system is happy. I have been dosing vitamin in my system since the late 80's and my fish have stayed and overcome some battles with some infections.

There is tons of research about probiotics in fish. They use it to reduce antibiotic use in aquaculture. It also helps animals digest food, so they get greater yields on less food. The company I work for manufactures and sells to companies in Asia (primarily) that aquaculture fish and shrimp. We also produce human and animal probiotics.

When I read up on pro biotic for humans , and the billion products out there , it's anything that Bactria can easily feed on. Bread is a pro biotic.

So some folks have been feeding yeasts to the tank. With success I might add. But No one has studied yet that I've seen , if it's the yeast bacteria that is responsible , or what the yeast is on causing the improvement. I'd wager both.

So any food that contains non pasteurized gut bacteria , like Lrs or raw and live foods will add bacteria ,and the rest add things the bacteria like to eat. For fish, that's meat and alge.
For us it's bread , real saurkraut and raw honey.

NONONO. Google isn’t always your friend. The internationally endorsed definition of probiotics is live microorganisms that, when administered in adequate amounts, confer a health benefit on the host.

Bread is NOT a probiotic. Bacteria and yeasts may/are used in bread but the baking kills them. There are only a few bacteria that can survive the heat of cooking. I’m going to guess most yeasts won’t survive in a marine environment but I haven researched it.

Meat and algae will have minimal bacteria that are considered “gut” bacteria unless you feed fresh caught marine fish to your tank. Even freezing may kill bacteria. The LA that LRS uses is a very hardy strain which can survive even with the fairly high water content.

Saukraut is good for us. Anything fermented will have bacteria that may survive in the stomach. Yogurt is good too. A decent amount of bacteria won’t survive our stomach acids. A lot do.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

FOS is a carbon source (sugar). Your bacterial bloom could be fueled by this. I would use LA for sure. The LRE is found in a lot of animal sources, I haven’t read about it being isolated from a marine source. Not sure about the LR either.



There is tons of research about probiotics in fish. They use it to reduce antibiotic use in aquaculture. It also helps animals digest food, so they get greater yields on less food. The company I work for manufactures and sells to companies in Asia (primarily) that aquaculture fish and shrimp. We also produce human and animal probiotics.



NONONO. Google isn’t always your friend. The internationally endorsed definition of probiotics is live microorganisms that, when administered in adequate amounts, confer a health benefit on the host.

Bread is NOT a probiotic. Bacteria and yeasts may/are used in bread but the baking kills them. There are only a few bacteria that can survive the heat of cooking. I’m going to guess most yeasts won’t survive in a marine environment but I haven researched it.

Meat and algae will have minimal bacteria that are considered “gut” bacteria unless you feed fresh caught marine fish to your tank. Even freezing may kill bacteria. The LA that LRS uses is a very hardy strain which can survive even with the fairly high water content.

Saukraut is good for us. Anything fermented will have bacteria that may survive in the stomach. Yogurt is good too. A decent amount of bacteria won’t survive our stomach acids. A lot so.

Usa standards for sales. And the Mayo Clinic.

I have homemade sauerkraut in the fridge.

 

[cpschult]

Usa standards for sales. And the Mayo Clinic.

I have homemade sauerkraut in the fridge.

I don’t wish to be combative but I dislike misinformation.

I work in the probiotic industry. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, but my experience ranges from the isolation of cultures, through the fermentation and media optimization to sales. I haven’t spent much time on research articles since I switched to operations but I am well read on a decent list of human and animal probiotics.


https://nccih.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm

Quick google search of Mayo Clinic+ probiotics;

 

[cpschult]

I’ll look into marine fish probiotics a bit if I can tomorrow. I was thinking about the yeasts a little. Even if they don’t survive (if using live yeasts) a marine environment they are jam packed with building blocks for bacteria. I’ll dig into that aspect a bit too if I find time.

Anyone know requirements for r2r articles? Maybe I can put something together if requirements aren’t to intense.

 

[JonB]

The final paper I did to earn my Masters degree was based on probiotic usage (although it was in humans- a review in gut microbial colonization along with usage of probiotics in prevention of neonatal enterocolitis) and I am extremely interested in this area. Although it is extremely early in the planning stages, later this year there is a CHANCE that I will investigate the microbiome in a way that has not been done in saltwater/reef tanks as of yet (it related to this thread because we might be looking for volunteers that use probiotics in their tanks, along with Zeovit, along with those who do and don't skim... etc). I can't say a whole lot yet because it is in the planning stages but we might get some better answers about using probiotics in reef tanks.

It doesn't seem that companies share a whole lot of info about what they put in their probiotics used in reef tanks ("proprietary.."). Also, there is very little oversight over probiotics (even in human supplementation) so I would suggest that this could be true for aquarium probiotics as well.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I don’t wish to be combative but I dislike misinformation.

I work in the probiotic industry. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, but my experience ranges from the isolation of cultures, through the fermentation and media optimization to sales. I haven’t spent much time on research articles since I switched to operations but I am well read on a decent list of human and animal probiotics.


https://nccih.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm

Quick google search of Mayo Clinic+ probiotics;

That’s cool.
Double check what is is that can be sold here in the Us to Pro mote good Bacterial growth in terms of gut health.
I don’t have all the bookmarks now , it was more than just cultures.
I dumped most of that and just started fermenting and made diet changes and also settled on one well documented supplement with several strains.

Most of the pro bitoics in Reefing are a reference to the nitrifying bacteria , even though there are actually only a few. 7 I belive , from taking to dr Tim and other research.
As it’s generally misunderstood what the do and how they work , specifically keeping the colony healthy and procreating in the tank ,
Numerous products and AD schemes are designed to make one belive constant addition of them is needed.
Oddly , a product like Dr Tim’s is not markedted as pro biotic , even though it is in fact , Bactria.

Other bacterias discussed in terms of coral health are populations that some coral seem to “farm” specifically and others that seem to behave like our wild yeasts that also work as part of the natural food web.

Many reefers , IMO, confuse those when discussing Probiotics And also biological diversity. The latter is kinda cutting edge and ongoing in oceanography.

 

[jsker]

I don’t wish to be combative but I dislike misinformation.

I work in the probiotic industry. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert, but my experience ranges from the isolation of cultures, through the fermentation and media optimization to sales. I haven’t spent much time on research articles since I switched to operations but I am well read on a decent list of human and animal probiotics.


https://nccih.nih.gov/health/probiotics/introduction.htm

Quick google search of Mayo Clinic+ probiotics;

Good information, thank you