Apex Heater Fail Safe Setting, Help Please

[jsker]

If you toggle the heaters to ON they will remain on, until the temperature that is set by the heater turns the heater off. So, it sounds like the temperature on your heaters is set too high. Now, if you set the heaters to AUTO they will turn ON and OFF according to your programming.

Personally, I would change your programming to:

Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Tmp < 78.4 Then ON
If FeedC 001 Then OFF
If FeedD 001 Then OFF
Defer 001:00 Then ON
Defer 001:00 Then OFF

Outlet TEMP_TOO_HIGH:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Tmp > 78.9 Then ON /* or whatever value you want */

EMAILALM_15:
If Outlet TEMP_TOO_HIGH ON then ON

Thank you for your response
Looking at the
Outlet TEMP_TOO_HIGH:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Tmp > 78.9 Then ON would the If Tmp> 78.9 Then be off to turn off??

 

[120reefkeeper]

I run 2 heaters like this. A lead and a lag. Once per year I take the lead out and throw it away. Then I make the lag the primary and put the new one as the lag. This way I have 1 new heater every year. I also have fans that kick on at 78.5 so my temperatures stay very very stable.

If you look at the bottom you see my max is 78.5 just like I have it set and my average is 78.23.

The large dip was a water change when the probe was exposed.

 

[Reefrodeo]

I run 2 heaters like this. A lead and a lag. Once per year I take the lead out and throw it away. Then I make the lag the primary and put the new one as the lag. This way I have 1 new heater every year. I also have fans that kick on at 78.5 so my temperatures stay very very stable.

If you look at the bottom you see my max is 78.5 just like I have it set and my average is 78.23.

The large dip was a water change when the probe was exposed.

120Reefkeeper - I run my heaters in lead-lag as well, but with matching off set points.

I have my heaters set as follows:
Lead: On=78.1, Off=78.3
Lag: On=77.9, Off=78.3

This way only the lead heater operates under normal conditions, but the lag kicks on if the temp continues to drop. This way both heaters are utilized to bring temps back to normal off set point, even if conditions that one heater cannot maintain temperature.

 

[120reefkeeper]

120Reefkeeper - I run my heaters in lead-lag as well, but with matching off set points.

I have my heaters set as follows:
Lead: On=78.1, Off=78.3
Lag: On=77.9, Off=78.3

This way only the lead heater operates under normal conditions, but the lag kicks on if the temp continues to drop. This way both heaters are utilized to bring temps back to normal off set point, even if conditions that one heater cannot maintain temperature.

The reason I don’t do that is so I can easily identify if my primary has failed.

 

[jsker]

@Reefrodeo and @120reefkeeper

Now you guys are getting all fancy with this

 

[Epicreefster]

I think that some of the confusion here is that not all finex heaters have a built in thermostat. If you are using a heater with no thermostat, then it's on, unplugging it is the only way to turn the element off. In that situation the apex is the only control and manual override ON will cook the tank.

Apex outlets have three options
ON: it will be on 100% of the time. You can program all you want the ON function overrides all programming and whatever is plugged in stays on all the time. Bad setting for any heater, it is essentially a wall outlet in this setting.
Auto: it follows the programming and is what all heaters should be set to. As a backup you can have a heater with a built in thermostat, the majority of heaters on the market but not all, set a degree higher than the apex. If the apex gets stuck in the on setting then the heater shuts itself down, like most aquariums without an advanced control system.
OFF: the outlet is off all the time. Again program away but it will never turn on in any situation if in the off position. This is essentially unplugging the equipment from the apex.

The only things you ever need to switch in the ON position are lights if you want them on out of the usual schedule.
The return pump and flow pumps could be ON too but I just use the constant on setting on the programming.

If the temp dips from a water change the apex should read it and turn on automatically then off at the set temp, no need to manually turn it on.

 

[jsker]

I think that some of the confusion here is that not all finex heaters have a built in thermostat. If you are using a heater with no thermostat, then it's on, unplugging it is the only way to turn the element off. In that situation the apex is the only control and manual override ON will cook the tank.

Apex outlets have three options
ON: it will be on 100% of the time. You can program all you want the ON function overrides all programming and whatever is plugged in stays on all the time. Bad setting for any heater, it is essentially a wall outlet in this setting.
Auto: it follows the programming and is what all heaters should be set to. As a backup you can have a heater with a built in thermostat, the majority of heaters on the market but not all, set a degree higher than the apex. If the apex gets stuck in the on setting then the heater shuts itself down, like most aquariums without an advanced control system.
OFF: the outlet is off all the time. Again program away but it will never turn on in any situation if in the off position. This is essentially unplugging the equipment from the apex.

The only things you ever need to switch in the ON position are lights if you want them on out of the usual schedule.
The return pump and flow pumps could be ON too but I just use the constant on setting on the programming.

If the temp dips from a water change the apex should read it and turn on automatically then off at the set temp, no need to manually turn it on.

I thank you and you answered my question.

We have some workarounds that work great. But as you stated, on is on and there is not any programming that can be written in for a fail safe in case we have are forgetful moments.

 

[Sleepydoc]

The best way of thinking of the 'Off' and 'On' settings is that they are manual overrides, 'Auto' lets the controller run the program, as others have already mentioned.

I can see turning the heaters off during sump maintenance or for other events, but there really should be no reason you would ever put the heater outlet to 'On.' Doing so is really just asking for problems because what you are saying is "I don't care how hot the tank gets, I want the heaters to stay on,"

Controllers are quite reliable, but even if you have a controller, I recommend getting heaters that have thermostats and setting the thermostat for a degree or two above the 'Off' temp you have programmed in the controller. That way if the controller should break, you make a mistake in your code, or turn the outlet on and leave it there, the heater thermostat will serve as a backup failsafe.

 

[jsker]

The best way of thinking of the 'Off' and 'On' settings is that they are manual overrides, 'Auto' lets the controller run the program, as others have already mentioned.

I can see turning the heaters off during sump maintenance or for other events, but there really should be no reason you would ever put the heater outlet to 'On.' Doing so is really just asking for problems because what you are saying is "I don't care how hot the tank gets, I want the heaters to stay on,"

Controllers are quite reliable, but even if you have a controller, I recommend getting heaters that have thermostats and setting the thermostat for a degree or two above the 'Off' temp you have programmed in the controller. That way if the controller should break, you make a mistake in your code, or turn the outlet on and leave it there, the heater thermostat will serve as a backup failsafe.

The short story is I had not been home for a couple of days, I need to do a water change, My energy was low, and I was distracted. Instead of making a simple adjustment to the program I made this mistake. This will be the first and last time this will happen.

As my original question, I was just wondering if there could be a fail safe put in using programing.

 

[Sleepydoc]

yeah, I have problems getting distracted too. borderline ADD and 3 kids is not a good combination! That's part of the reason I got a controller, but if you make a mistake and disable the controller, well....

As stated above, there's no way to have the Apex override the manual override. The best you can do is with the alarms so you get notified when the temp goes too high. (and have a heater with a thermostat. )

 

[jsker]

yeah, I have problems getting distracted too. borderline ADD and 3 kids is not a good combination! That's part of the reason I got a controller, but if you make a mistake and disable the controller, well....

As stated above, there's no way to have the Apex override the manual override. The best you can do is with the alarms so you get notified when the temp goes too high. (and have a heater with a thermostat. )

I still need to setup the email for the alarm the notification showed on the fusion dashboard.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I would definitely get the e-mail notifications set up ASAP (or add the Neptune app to your phone.) That’s one of the biggest reasons to get a controller, IMO - to notify you when stuff is happening that you dont expect.

 

[jsker]

I would definitely get the e-mail notifications set up ASAP (or add the Neptune app to your phone.) That’s one of the biggest reasons to get a controller, IMO - to notify you when stuff is happening that you dont expect.

Working on that now.

 

[Sleepydoc]

A couple of tips from my experience with dealing with alarms in Apex:

• The alarm outlet has some special properties (i.e. it sends you alarms,) but it is programmed like any other outlet. Like standard outlets, the slider works as a manual override. If you slide it to off, you disable all alarms.
• I was having issues with ‘nuissance’ Alarms caused by water splashing on an optical sensor, etc. I would get multiple e-mails for the alarm ‘flickering’ on then off. You can prevent these by adding a “Defer 000:05 Then ON” statement. This ensures that any condition is present for at least 5 seconds before triggering an alarm.
• There are some alarms I want to know about as soon as they happen, while others I want to know about them, it I dont’ want to get woken up. Since the statements in the outlet programming are evaluated in the order they’re listed, I listed the ‘non-critical’ alarms such as my skimmate jug being full first. After these I added a “If Time 22:00 to 06:30 Then OFF” statement, then after this statement added the critical alarms that I always want to know about.

You can get fancier with virtual outlets if you want, but start with the basics first. There’s a great community here and on the Neptune forum that can help you answer questions.

 

[Robert's Reef]

Thank you for your response
Looking at the
Outlet TEMP_TOO_HIGH:
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Tmp > 78.9 Then ON would the If Tmp> 78.9 Then be off to turn off??

It would turn on when the temperature wa 79.0 or higher.

 

[jsker]

It would turn on when the temperature wa 79.0 or higher.

I still have not had time to make adjustments to my Apex yet

 

[Nano man]

Please help,
I am bringing this topic back up. I’m new to apex and was told by BRS that it is better to have 2 heaters Incase one fails. I’m setting up a 90 gallon and I have 2 150 eheim (rated for tank size 53-79gal) heaters connected to my apex JR.
Which of the 2 settings above would be better to go with givin the heaters I have?
Thanks for your help reefers.
Jay

 

[jsker]

This what I settled with
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
If Tmp < 78.4 Then ON
If Tmp > 78.6 Then OFF
If FeedC 002 Then OFF
If FeedD 002 Then OFF

 

[Nano man]

Ok so that goes into the advanced configuration but what does If feed c and d lines of commands do?
And is that for both pumps?
I read somewhere before that if the probe ever was to malfunction there was a line of code to account for that too?

 

[120reefkeeper]

This is how I have mine setup.

The first picture is heater number 1 .

This one below is heater number 2

And next is a series of fans that I have that are programmed to come on.

Last is a screenshot of my temperature control... it’s very tight and I use halides and t5 bulbs on this tank.

Hope this helps [emoji4]