Apex Trident Issue?

[Sdot]

Hello Reefing family! I need opinions on a possible issue with my Trident. I run the ATI essentials program and like to keep my ALK around 7.3, my corals tend to look better and grow just fine at that level. Initially I thought testing 4 times per day minimum was a bit much, however, overtime you really see how changes can impact your corals consumption.

A little bit about the tank: the goal is an SPS dominant display. I have mainly small colonies of various species of SPS, and at the current moment I’m in reboot mode. The aquarium was established Feb of this year and is a transfer from an existing reef (Upgraded to a larger tank) that’s been in operation for over 2 years. Per a recent ICP test, my tin level were 53.99 µg / l…..and I was dealing with bubble algae; between treating the tank with vibrant, high levels of tin and water changing a large percentage of water (my fault) to correct the high levels of tin, I lost a fair bit of my colonies. I believe the source of tin was contaminated water from a LFS…still investigating this.

Back to the issue, due to all the changes I had to reduce my dosing because the number of corals and I think they were ticked anyway. I stopped dosing ALK/ CAL completely due to the slow rise of alk..that was on 06/18. My issue is despite my not dosing, the ALK levels continues to rise and fluctuate, per the trident test results. Ill be testing with a salifert kit today, has anyone run into this issue? Please see Trident graph below…. keep in mind I hadn’t dosed ALK or CAL since 06/18 and I have some sps colonies remaining. Lastly please see the last few results. My Alk according to the trident results went from 8.09 (Midnight this morning) to 8.2 (6am this morning) … the result seemed really weird so I reran the ALK test again (7:46am this morning) and it dropped from 8.2 back to 8.09…..

 

[TheHarold]

8.1 to 8.2 is not really a large “fluctuation”. That is extremely stable is maintained across time

 

[Sdot]

8.1 to 8.2 is not really a large “fluctuation”. That is extremely stable is maintained across time

I guess my issue is why is it going up if im not dosing anything...look at the complete graph...its all over with out me dosing anything... and i agree but you dont think thats a large jump over the course of 6 hours?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I guess my issue is why is it going up if im not dosing anything...look at the complete graph...its all over with out me dosing anything... and i agree but you dont think thats a large jump over the course of 6 hours?

The graph is all over the place because of the asinine scale the Apex uses. 8.03 to 8.25 on the vertical axis provides you almost no insight into how your alkalinity is trending.

I've replicated your data and placed them in Microsoft Excel. When I use the same scale as the Apex, the results do appear erratic:

As I said though, this scale is absolutely asinine and offers almost no useful insight into how your alkalinity is trending. When you use a scale that's more meaningful to hobbyists, like 7.0 dKh to 11 dKh, the results look a lot more stable (because they are):

Some people allow alkalinity to swing up to a full dKh per day or more. Your alkalinity moving 0.2 dKh over the course of six hours is not "all over the place." Adjust the scale of the graph to get a more meaningful idea of how the numbers are trending.

 

[User1]

The graph is all over the place because of the asinine scale the Apex uses. 8.03 to 8.25 on the vertical access provides you almost no insight into how your alkalinity is trending.

I've replicated your data and placed them in Microsoft Excel. When I use the same scale as the Apex, the results do appear erratic:

As I said though, this scale is absolutely asinine and offers almost no useful insight into how your alkalinity is trending. When you use a scale that's more meaningful to hobbyists, like 7.0 dKh to 11 dKh, the results look a lot more stable (because they are):

Some people allow alkalinity to swing up to a full dKh per day or more. Your alkalinity moving 0.2 dKh over the course of six hours is not "all over the place." Adjust the scale of the graph to get a more meaningful idea of how the numbers are trending.

I can't say this enough how valuable this post is. This posts come up from time to time regarding the Trident and when it is displayed this way we say yeah, you know what it is fine after all.

Wish Neptune would address this.

 

[canadianeh]

The graph is all over the place because of the asinine scale the Apex uses. 8.03 to 8.25 on the vertical access provides you almost no insight into how your alkalinity is trending.

I've replicated your data and placed them in Microsoft Excel. When I use the same scale as the Apex, the results do appear erratic:

As I said though, this scale is absolutely asinine and offers almost no useful insight into how your alkalinity is trending. When you use a scale that's more meaningful to hobbyists, like 7.0 dKh to 11 dKh, the results look a lot more stable (because they are):

Some people allow alkalinity to swing up to a full dKh per day or more. Your alkalinity moving 0.2 dKh over the course of six hours is not "all over the place." Adjust the scale of the graph to get a more meaningful idea of how the numbers are trending.

This is true. You can look at any graphs including financial graphs. If you look at stock market graphs and zoom in to minute to minute, you will not see the overall trend. You will see erratic movements like your Neptune graph.

 

[Hydrored]

The graph is all over the place because of the asinine scale the Apex uses. 8.03 to 8.25 on the vertical axis provides you almost no insight into how your alkalinity is trending.

I've replicated your data and placed them in Microsoft Excel. When I use the same scale as the Apex, the results do appear erratic:

As I said though, this scale is absolutely asinine and offers almost no useful insight into how your alkalinity is trending. When you use a scale that's more meaningful to hobbyists, like 7.0 dKh to 11 dKh, the results look a lot more stable (because they are):

Some people allow alkalinity to swing up to a full dKh per day or more. Your alkalinity moving 0.2 dKh over the course of six hours is not "all over the place." Adjust the scale of the graph to get a more meaningful idea of how the numbers are trending.

This post should be stickied

 

[Sdot]

Thanks guys for all of your responses....but to address the Elephant in the room...I hadn't dosed 2 part for nearly a month...why would my ALK rise? If you look at my original post at 6am my ALK registered 8.2 according to apex and just an hour an a half later it dropped to 8.09 matching the reading from 12 hours prior.......you dont find that problematic?

 

[TheHarold]

Thanks guys for all of your responses....but to address the Elephant in the room...I hadn't dosed 2 part for nearly a month...why would my ALK rise? If you look at my original post at 6am my ALK registered 8.2 according to apex and just an hour an a half later it dropped to 8.09 matching the reading from 12 hours prior.......you dont find that problematic?

I don't find a .1 change problematic. The accuracy of the Trident under perfect conditions is +-.05dkh, and then any compounding issues with an individual test (small air bubble in intake line, etc) can add to that. There is literally nothing to be worried about here with a .1dkh change, in my opinion.

Hanna checkers that many advanced hobbyists rely on can easily vary .3dkh when tested back-to-back.

 

[User1]

Thanks guys for all of your responses....but to address the Elephant in the room...I hadn't dosed 2 part for nearly a month...why would my ALK rise? If you look at my original post at 6am my ALK registered 8.2 according to apex and just an hour an a half later it dropped to 8.09 matching the reading from 12 hours prior.......you dont find that problematic?

I don't, no.

 

[Sdot]

I don't, no.

Do you believe the ALK is rising or the test results are inaccurate?

 

[Robinson]

Thanks guys for all of your responses....but to address the Elephant in the room...I hadn't dosed 2 part for nearly a month...why would my ALK rise? If you look at my original post at 6am my ALK registered 8.2 according to apex and just an hour an a half later it dropped to 8.09 matching the reading from 12 hours prior.......you dont find that problematic?

I think that a lot of us missed the part were you are saying that you're not dosing any cal/alk for almost a month. If that is the case and you do have SPS corals in the tank, then yes, is very strange that your alk is not getting constantly low after a few days/weeks.
I do understand like others here that the precision of the Trident will make the readings up/down a little,but you overall alk should be getting low as the days goes by (6/18 - 7/15) unless your coral are not consuming anything or you have a big tank with only a few frags which can explain your low consumption.

To help a littler, how many gallon is your tank? how much you were dosing daily of alk? What was your alk reading the day you stopped dosing? This may help us to understand the consumption you were having in your tank.

 

[Sdot]

I think that a lot of us missed the part were you are saying that you're not dosing any cal/alk for almost a month. If that is the case and you do have SPS corals in the tank, then yes, is very strange that your alk is not getting constantly low after a few days/weeks.
I do understand like others here that the precision of the Trident will make the readings up/down a little,but you overall alk should be getting low as the days goes by (6/18 - 7/15) unless your coral are not consuming anything or you have a big tank with only a few frags which can explain your low consumption.

To help a littler, how many gallon is your tank? how much you were dosing daily of alk? What was your alk reading the day you stopped dosing? This may help us to understand the consumption you were having in your tank.

Yes thanks! I was dosing 38ML each of ATI essentials...the solution is diluted 4:1 however still very potent.

Here is the aftermath... but you can see there are colonies in the tank...the overall volume is around 300 Gallons

 

[Robinson]

Yes thanks! I was dosing 38ML each of ATI essentials...the solution is diluted 4:1 however still very potent.

Here is the aftermath... but you can see there are colonies in the tank...the overall volume is around 300 Gallons

Nice tank!

I think that 38 ml is a very low dose for a 300 gallons tank, for me this means you consumption is very low at this point due to a few factors: more water volume and low coral intake, also your corals are adapting too. Also if you did water changes, you were replacing some elements too.

I dose 150 ml in around 100 gallon tank plus kalkwasser, if I stop dosing my alk will go down around 1.3 in 24 hrs.

Can you double check your alk reading with another test? just to compare your trident numbers. And how the corals are looking?

 

[Sdot]

Nice tank!

I think that 38 ml is a very low dose for a 300 gallons tank, for me this means you consumption is very low at this point due to a few factors: more water volume and low coral intake, also your corals are adapting too. Also if you did water changes, you were replacing some elements too.

I dose 150 ml in around 100 gallon tank plus kalkwasser, if I stop dosing my alk will go down around 1.3 in 24 hrs.

Can you double check your alk reading with another test? just to compare your trident numbers. And how the corals are looking?

Thanks for your response.... this was my dosage after losing some colonies. I do agree with your assessment however, I am picking up a Salifert test in a bit, ill test that as well. My main concern is the ALK value going up...i would think it would drop or stay the same...not drop one day, go up the next and back down the following day. The corals that are in the tank appear to be fine..there are two colonies, one of which i will prolly need to remove....that one is completely bleached other than a few branches and the other has a section that is bleached; it does have great PE though.

 

[User1]

Do you believe the ALK is rising or the test results are inaccurate?

I believe the tests are accurate and see no reason not to. As pointed out already the swing doesn't appear to be out of tolerance. There is a issue Neptune spoke about that is affecting maybe 1% of the user base regarding Calcium rising as the reagent bottle gets to 50% or so. That is what they call the drift issue but not reported with Alk.

If you reply say in 5 days from today and say your Alk is now reporting 9 and you are not dosing then maybe I'd think twince.

What is your reagent levels?
When was the last time reagents got replaced?
When was the calibration done?

If you are really concerned, and it seems you are a bit, then send Neptune support a ticket. It won't hurt anything and it is good for them to get tickets such as this to see if there are trends.

 

[User1]

Nice tank!

I think that 38 ml is a very low dose for a 300 gallons tank, for me this means you consumption is very low at this point due to a few factors: more water volume and low coral intake, also your corals are adapting too. Also if you did water changes, you were replacing some elements too.

I dose 150 ml in around 100 gallon tank plus kalkwasser, if I stop dosing my alk will go down around 1.3 in 24 hrs.

Can you double check your alk reading with another test? just to compare your trident numbers. And how the corals are looking?

This is a great point. I was dosing 30 - 40 ml / day when dosing ESV 2 part in my 210. My tank is similar in that I have only a few SPS test frags, clam, and the rest being LPS/Soft. The demand isn't there.

Now with TM AFR I'm still only dosing about 45 ml / day. The consumption just isn't there.

 

[Sdot]

I believe the tests are accurate and see no reason not to. As pointed out already the swing doesn't appear to be out of tolerance. There is a issue Neptune spoke about that is affecting maybe 1% of the user base regarding Calcium rising as the reagent bottle gets to 50% or so. That is what they call the drift issue but not reported with Alk.

If you reply say in 5 days from today and say your Alk is now reporting 9 and you are not dosing then maybe I'd think twince.

What is your reagent levels?
When was the last time reagents got replaced?
When was the calibration done?

If you are really concerned, and it seems you are a bit, then send Neptune support a ticket. It won't hurt anything and it is good for them to get tickets such as this to see if there are trends.

I calibrate every time i change CA/MG or every 2 months. I tested my ALK with Salifert and it came back around 8.3.... This is result from the 6pm test as well as my reagent level:

 

[Sdot]

The graph is all over the place because of the asinine scale the Apex uses. 8.03 to 8.25 on the vertical axis provides you almost no insight into how your alkalinity is trending.

I've replicated your data and placed them in Microsoft Excel. When I use the same scale as the Apex, the results do appear erratic:

As I said though, this scale is absolutely asinine and offers almost no useful insight into how your alkalinity is trending. When you use a scale that's more meaningful to hobbyists, like 7.0 dKh to 11 dKh, the results look a lot more stable (because they are):

Some people allow alkalinity to swing up to a full dKh per day or more. Your alkalinity moving 0.2 dKh over the course of six hours is not "all over the place." Adjust the scale of the graph to get a more meaningful idea of how the numbers are trending.

How do you adjust the scale?

 

[ca1ore]

Come on guys ….. adjusting the vertical scale is the first 'cheap' trick in the statisticians playbook for making differences appear more profound than they actually are LOL. I look at data all the time for my job, and that's one of the first things I look for. Personally, the way that Apex displays variations is much more sensible to me. Variations between 8.03 and 8.25 just aren't statistically significant in my book (given the level of measurement error already noted).

Does seem a bit odd that alk is rising in the absence of any dosing though. How about water changes? Do those correlate with rising alk?