Are Grammas hermaphrodites?

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My experience is that they are dimorphic and are protogynous hermaphodites. Some very accomplished fish breeder disagree. If you find any literatures on this please let me know. I think the information are know but not proliferate ir recorders that I know about.
I take that back. The article cited above give detail information on this species.
I know that I have a harem of RG. One dominant male when the male get old, 4-5 years he was killed by the next largest female and she took over. They spawned frequently in my reef, 420 gal while I keep them.
 
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Nutramar Foods
It could be very well that they are bisexual and differentiated to either male or female. In my harem of 6 in a 420 gal tank, there is only one phenotypic male. It is hard to know which of the other in the harem he spawned with.
He will entice the female to join him in his den. There they spawn and form an egg mass attached to algae. He guards the egg mass until they hatch and then start again.
I was told that some of the non-dominant male have phenotypic female appearance abide in the background until their time come.
 
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Zionas said:
Have there been any studies done on Grammas and Reef Basslets (Liopropoma)? Are they known to be protogynous hermaphrodites?

What about Chrysiptera damsels like your Azures and Starcki? Are they known to change sex?
Click to expand...
Grammas are thought to be almost exclusively gonochoristic (i.e. male or female separately, not hermaphroditic), however, Gramma brasiliensis is thought to be a protogynous hermaphrodite species.* (More research needs to be done, but, currently, G. brasiliensis is the only one I'm aware of that demonstrates hermaphroditic characteristics.)

Liopropoma basslets need to be better studied, but, based on a sample size of five specimens from each species, Liopropoma mowbrayi and Liopropoma rubre are thought to be gonochoristic too.** To my knowledge, though, these are the only two species that have been studied for this, and the sample size is small enough that it casts some doubt on the validity of the findings.

I'm not sure about Chrysiptera species specifically, but I know protoandrous hermaphroditism, protogynous hermaphroditism, and bidirectional sex change hermaphroditism are common in Pomacentrid fish, so I wouldn't be surprised to find these are hermaphroditic in some way.***

*Gramma brasiliensis:
www.scielo.br

Rediscovering hermaphroditism in Grammatidae with the description of the testicular gland in Brazilian Basslet <i>Gramma brasiliensis</i>

Abstract Many aspects of sex change in reef fishes have been studied, including behavior and...
www.scielo.br www.scielo.br
**Liopropoma mowbrayi and L. rubre:
***Pomacentrid fish:
link.springer.com

Hermaphroditism in fishes: an annotated list of species, phylogeny, and mating system - Ichthyological Research

Fewer than 1% of vertebrate species are hermaphroditic, and essentially all of these are fishes. Four types of hermaphroditism are known in fishes: simultaneous (or synchronous) hermaphroditism (SH), protandry (male-to-female sex change; PA), protogyny (female-to-male sex change; PG), and...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
 
ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Grammas are thought to be almost exclusively gonochoristic (i.e. male or female separately, not hermaphroditic), however, Gramma brasiliensis is thought to be a protogynous hermaphrodite species.* (More research needs to be done, but, currently, G. brasiliensis is the only one I'm aware of that demonstrates hermaphroditic characteristics.)

Liopropoma basslets need to be better studied, but, based on a sample size of five specimens from each species, Liopropoma mowbrayi and Liopropoma rubre are thought to be gonochoristic too.** To my knowledge, though, these are the only two species that have been studied for this, and the sample size is small enough that it casts some doubt on the validity of the findings.

I'm not sure about Chrysiptera species specifically, but I know protoandrous hermaphroditism, protogynous hermaphroditism, and bidirectional sex change hermaphroditism are common in Pomacentrid fish, so I wouldn't be surprised to find these are hermaphroditic in some way.***

*Gramma brasiliensis:
www.scielo.br

Rediscovering hermaphroditism in Grammatidae with the description of the testicular gland in Brazilian Basslet <i>Gramma brasiliensis</i>

Abstract Many aspects of sex change in reef fishes have been studied, including behavior and...
www.scielo.br www.scielo.br
**Liopropoma mowbrayi and L. rubre:
***Pomacentrid fish:
link.springer.com

Hermaphroditism in fishes: an annotated list of species, phylogeny, and mating system - Ichthyological Research

Fewer than 1% of vertebrate species are hermaphroditic, and essentially all of these are fishes. Four types of hermaphroditism are known in fishes: simultaneous (or synchronous) hermaphroditism (SH), protandry (male-to-female sex change; PA), protogyny (female-to-male sex change; PG), and...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
Click to expand...

G. loreto and G. brasiliensis are so similar, that I am sure they are at one time share a common ancestor. If G. grasiliensis are protogynous hermaphrodites, then I am confident that G. loreto will be the same.
My experiences with G. loreto indicated that they are protogynous hermaphrodites. I keep harem of these fish off and on, the longest time I keep a harem of them were 7-8 years or so. Over that period of time. I had two dominate males and a harem of up to 6-7 fish total. I added fish to this harem by getting the LFS ordered group of them, keep them together and pick the smallest one or two of the group.
I considered, through my experiences, them to be protogynous hermaphrodites, but was told that they are gonochoristic, but never really look up the paper that supposed to show this. I wish there is a GOOD scientific study that settle this question once and for all.
I have a picture of the dimorphic characteristic of G. loreto floating somewhere on the internet. Basically, once the fish become the dominant male, he will develop longer pelvic fins and will have more purple at the expense of the yellow coloration (the border between purple and yellow will move toward the caudal end of the fish). This change is really easy to see. There is no mistaken the phenotype male and female in the tank. It is hard to tell the various females from each other.
 
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Matthew L. Wittenrich (of Poma Labs) and Scott Michael seem to disagree. I had one of Matt’s books (the one on breeding fish) and he thinks both the Grammas and Liopropoma are protogynous hermaphrodites, while he puts the Assessors and Marine Betta as “unknown.” Scott Michael, on the other hand, believes the Grammas (not sure what he put for Liopropoma, Assessor and Calleplesiops) are exclusively gonochoristic. Having this conflicting info is frustrating, to say the least.
 
I would trust the breeder, and the good scientists who actually dissect the fish. There are plenty of scientists who did things 1/2 a**.
I think Scott Michael just take a lot of beautiful picture and read a lot. I like Scott Michael but I don’t think he is an authority on this subject. At least not the first hand authority.
I think i am have my doubt on the paper that said they G. loreto are gonochoristic.
needs confirmatory study.
 
I've wanted to try a handful of grammas. Based on other reefers' experiences, including Minh's, it looks like they are hermaphrodites and can function as a harem if you go with small juveniles.

For Chrysiptera, I tried for a pair with fairly small juveniles in my 125, and one killed the other. I'm wondering if they actually have fixed gender.
 
ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Liopropoma basslets need to be better studied, but, based on a sample size of five specimens from each species, Liopropoma mowbrayi and Liopropoma rubre are thought to be gonochoristic too.** To my knowledge, though, these are the only two species that have been studied for this, and the sample size is small enough that it casts some doubt on the validity of the findings.
Click to expand...
Found an article to add to this (and to muddy up the water further); the author of the article successfully reared some Liopropoma - including Liopropoma rubre - and they mention that pairing them was easy because they were hermaphroditic.
reefs.com

Preliminary success in the spawning and rearing of Liopropoma Sp.

By Todd Gardner The Long Road to Settlement The reef basses, Liopropoma sp. are a group of small groupers found on tropical coral reefs throughout the wor
reefs.com reefs.com
 
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