Are low Phosphates killing my coral?

[Fotocha]

Did Reef2reef change their format/website? I'm using my phone it looks way different today. Anyone else seeing this?

Yes it did lol

 

[Tastee]

I killed a torch and damaged a Sinularia in my 65g tank by over-dosing LC due to a bad PO4 test kit. After that I changed to NoPoX as I was battling GHA and thought reducing NO3 and PO4 was the solution. Ultimately it wasn’t and I had a working tank starting at 0.00 NO3 and 0.02 Po4.

I stopped dosing NoPoX in Feb and dealt with the GHA at that time. So I effectively started with an ULN tank. As NO3 and PO4 started to rise everything got better and happier. NO3 quickly rose to 1.5 and PO4 to 0.04. After 6 weeks NO3 dropped to 0.25 and has stayed there ever since. PO4 dropped to 0.02 but has gradually risen to be now 0.08. I have been feeding much more generously in the last 2 months and will continue to do so.

I run a skimmer, filter socks (225 micron mesh) and a sponge (RSR 250). The skimmer and socks are cleaned weekly, sponge every 6 weeks when I do a 15% WC. AF dosing 24x7 via DOS.

 

[infinite0180]

Not yet, if you bought a bottle please post your experiences while using it.

Im attempting to feed more first. If that doesnt work then ill probably order a bottle and start dosing. If i do i think ill give ATI a shot because they have a calculator on their site for dosage...

 

[Fotocha]

Finally! One-Derland!

 

[Fotocha]

Here is my parameters presently if others are interested and my dosing log.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

I killed a torch and damaged a Sinularia in my 65g tank by over-dosing LC due to a bad PO4 test kit. After that I changed to NoPoX as I was battling GHA and thought reducing NO3 and PO4 was the solution. Ultimately it wasn’t and I had a working tank starting at 0.00 NO3 and 0.02 Po4.

I stopped dosing NoPoX in Feb and dealt with the GHA at that time. So I effectively started with an ULN tank. As NO3 and PO4 started to rise everything got better and happier. NO3 quickly rose to 1.5 and PO4 to 0.04. After 6 weeks NO3 dropped to 0.25 and has stayed there ever since. PO4 dropped to 0.02 but has gradually risen to be now 0.08. I have been feeding much more generously in the last 2 months and will continue to do so.

I run a skimmer, filter socks (225 micron mesh) and a sponge (RSR 250). The skimmer and socks are cleaned weekly, sponge every 6 weeks when I do a 15% WC. AF dosing 24x7 via DOS.

Thanks for the feedback. My tank started out similar to yours. I was under the impression that you wanted zero, or almost zero N03 and P04. Only when I had no nutrients in the tank did I have problems with GHA and Cyano. Since my levels came up I've had very little, if any, algae.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

Finally! One-Derland!

Nice! How's your tank responding to the new phosphates?

 

[Fotocha]

Nice! How's your tank responding to the new phosphates?

Algae And diatoms are back lol

 

[DirtMcGurt]

Well that sucks lol.
I forgot to dose phosphates yesterday and mine P04 level almost zeroed out in less then 2 days. Some of my coral aren't too happy. So it makes me think that having a super low P04 level has been hurting my corals these last few months. I may set this up on a doser but I'm nervous about that.

 

[infinite0180]

Ive been feeding pellets 3 to 4 times a day now and my po4 has gone from 0 to 0.02. Corals looked great today! Im going to see if feeding alone will get me to a point where it finds a balance...

 

[Ike]

Ive been feeding pellets 3 to 4 times a day now and my po4 has gone from 0 to 0.02. Corals looked great today! Im going to see if feeding alone will get me to a point where it finds a balance...

Great, it's the best way to go about it in my opinion.

 

[Ike]

Well that sucks lol.
I forgot to dose phosphates yesterday and mine P04 level almost zeroed out in less then 2 days. Some of my coral aren't too happy. So it makes me think that having a super low P04 level has been hurting my corals these last few months. I may set this up on a doser but I'm nervous about that.

Bad idea... Feed your fish some high protein flakes or pellets more often.

 

[Fotocha]

Well that sucks lol.
I forgot to dose phosphates yesterday and mine P04 level almost zeroed out in less then 2 days. Some of my coral aren't too happy. So it makes me think that having a super low P04 level has been hurting my corals these last few months. I may set this up on a doser but I'm nervous about that.

You could always dose it in your ATO

 

[DirtMcGurt]

Actually, putting it in my top off water would be safer. I'll have to look for a food with more phosphorus content I guess. Because feeding twice a day makes it hard to keep N03 down to acceptable levels and that much feeding won't add any P04 for some reason.

 

[Jimbo662]

So I'm finally getting frustrated with this tank.... Its a 75 gallon reef ready with a Trigger 30 sunp and has been up and running for 1 year and 2 months. I try hard to keep good husbandry habits. 15 to 20 gallon water changes every 7-10 days. I dose Redsea Alk and Calcium and run 2 Kessil 360WE lights. The latest parameters are...
Alk: 9.5
Cal: 400
Mag: 1340
Temp: 78-80 F
N03: 10 pom
P04: 0.02
Nitrite: 0.0
Ammonia: 0.0
Ph: 8.2-8.4

The N03 and P04 both swing in a matter of days, it seems. If I do nothing, the P04 will drop to 0.0 and the NO3 seems to rise. It used to be the other way around. I had trouble keeping N03 up and P04 was about 0.08 most of the time. Until hair algae and dinos took over my tank. It was terrible and I almost gave up. After A LOT of cleaning, adding a UV filter, and dosing Neonitro the N03 came up and everything stabilized. My tank was a beautiful thriving reef for about 3 months. With all corals happy and growing noticeably. Until my tang died and got stuck under some rock work. I didnt want to tear my beautiful reef apart to take it out and the crabs seemed to have eaten most of the carcass so I just did a bunch of water changes to get it out. That resulted in the N03 rising to 50 ppm and I lost all chalice frags, most acans, and most other corals are still angry about this. Also, if I let the P04 bottom out, or drop, I get a dusting of diatoms (I'm guessing diatoms but not 100% sure) and my corals seem to be happier if I keep dosing the Neophos. My question is... am I doing this right? If so, will it ever stabilize again this way? Any input is greatly appreciated because this is gonna be the end of my reefing for a while if I can't figure this out.

I've read through the thread but didn't see if you ever mentioned how many fish are in the tank. I've always heard the number of fish and the waste they produce contribute to the ecosystem of a tank.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

I've read through the thread but didn't see if you ever mentioned how many fish are in the tank. I've always heard the number of fish and the waste they produce contribute to the ecosystem of a tank.

Ya know... I considered that once but never mentioned it. In my standard 75 gallon I have 2 clowns, a 6 line wrasse, and a yellow watchman goby. I had a powder brown tang but something got it. Parasite maybe.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

To add to that... I remember how much that tang would poop in my tank when I had it. Maybe I need another tang to help these phosphates out.

 

[Timfish]

For those interested here's some of the research papers showing the problems caused by high nitrates and/or low phosphates, as well as showing the probelms with dosing nitrates and/or phosphates. Best source of both is from fish poop. WHile the majority of research is done on wild corals in aquaria the work done by SOuthampton Univeristy in England was done with corals maintianed for a minimum of 2 years in a closed and closely monitored reef system:

Southampton University:
Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient%20enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

D'angelo, C., & Wiedenmann, J. (2012). An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals. Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom, 92(4), 769-775. doi:10.1017/S0025315411001883

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

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Nitrate enhancment inhibits carbon fixation (calcification) Ammonium is better than nitrate

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rspb.2015.0610

Nitrate or nitrate and phosphate additions decreased calcification while phosphate alone additions increased calcification

Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Request PDF

Request PDF | Context-dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral-algal mutualism | Human-mediated increases in nutrient availability alter patterns of primary production, impact species diversity, and threaten ecosystem function.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

Nutrient availability, specifically the forms and ratios of nutrients such as nitrogen and phosphorus, mediates algal symbiont parasitism

Nutrient Availability and Metabolism Affect the Stability of Coral–Symbiodiniaceae Symbioses

Coral reefs rely upon the highly optimized coral–Symbiodiniaceae symbiosis, making them sensitive to environmental change and susceptible to anthropog…

www.sciencedirect.com

Nitrate and Iron enhancments inhibit growth

Response of a scleractinian coral, Stylophora pistillata, to iron and nitrate enrichment

The purpose of this study was to determine whether the addition of iron alone or in combination with nitrate affects growth and photosynthesis of the …

www.sciencedirect.com

Additionally, research shows the benefits of feeding corals is species specific and more likley than not has either no effect or a negative effect on coral growth

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

And , keep in mind corals have simbiotic diazatrophs that assimilate dinitrogen (N2, free nitrogen) for the coral

Diazotrophs: a non-negligible source of nitrogen for the tropical coral Stylophora pistillata - PubMed

Corals are mixotrophs: they are able to fix inorganic carbon through the activity of their symbiotic dinoflagellates and to gain nitrogen from predation on plankton and uptake of dissolved organic and inorganic nutrients. They also live in close association with diverse diazotrophic communities...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Jimbo662]

I'd always had trouble keeping PO4 up...it was always around .02 -.03. Previously had 3 tangs, a pair of clowns and about 6 other fish in a 130g. After I moved last Nov I got rid of the tangs because all of the smaller fish (except the clowns) always stayed hid. I now have a total of 16 small / medium sized fish that all stay out all the time. I'm feeding 2 cubes of frozen a day along with a mix of small pellets twice a day and I'm finally seeing PO4 consistently around .1. No GFO and no macro algae other than a little GHA in the display tank (that I'm trying to get rid of!) Over the last 6 months any time I put an LPS frag in the tank it was gone within a week. I've been trying to hold off adding any more for the last 2 months until I'm sure the PO4 is going to stay at a good level.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

Thanks for all the info and links @Ttimfish I'll try to read thru it. It's a lot lol