Are Metal Halides Making a Comeback?

[shred5]

Sad to say it wasn't a good time
I totally copped out on Carlos and Jeremy the day of

Just started an addition on the house and it was a super hectic day.

We need to plan a get together though for sure
I've got some big developments over here

pm sent

 

[Alfredo De La Fe]

I am reading people make statements like "LED is fine for softies and lps but not sps". This is just wrong. Most of the advanced reefers I know run LED now. Many of the best display tanks as well.

If you buy crap you get what you pay for. But you don't have to go expensive either. SB Reeflights seem really good and the run about $250 per unit with built in WiFi.

I switched to LED and have not had to change my bulbs in three years, disconnected my chiller and don't trip my circuit breaker or go crazy when I get my electric bill.

 

[Sabellafella]

^Agreed T5 give nice side fill due to wide fixture dimensions combined with reflectors. LEDs are very directional. There are LED supplemental bars to use as side fills as well. Reef Brights makes a great proven supplemental light and Tullio provides exceptional customer service. Our supplemental bars are being released this weekend. 2,3,4,5 and 6' with Cree diodes.

Get out! Sb reef bars!! Are they dimmable?

 

[SB Reef Lights]

Get out! Sb reef bars!! Are they dimmable?

First gen will be on/off. I will have dimmable shortly on a 0-10v analog control. Finally Apex/ReefKeeper ready after that.

 

[BoneXriffic]

I am reading people make statements like "LED is fine for softies and lps but not sps". This is just wrong. Most of the advanced reefers I know run LED now. Many of the best display tanks as well.

If you buy crap you get what you pay for. But you don't have to go expensive either. SB Reeflights seem really good and the run about $250 per unit with built in WiFi.

I switched to LED and have not had to change my bulbs in three years, disconnected my chiller and don't trip my circuit breaker or go crazy when I get my electric bill.

People keep talking about chillers, never had the need for one with halides. Actually have to run a heater to maintain 76. And as for sps...well the same is said for halides growing sps just fine as well as t5 and led. Preference is key. Also....i would like to state that if anythong the halides help my heater work slightly less so thats helping energy =) and if i cared that greatly about electric then lets not forget the skimmer, multiple powerheads, return pump....and in some peoples cases reactors, fuge lights, water change stations..... when we boil down to it if we dont like halides because of our electric bill then why have a tank at all? Its a collective of electronic equipment to maintain our systems.

This just made me name my tank the "borg"

 

[SB Reef Lights]

The cost difference can be substantial. When I switched from MH/T5 a few years ago, I went from 3 250wMH +4 T5 to 6 black boxes. Electric bill went down $40 a month. And that was with doubling the heaters and return pumps on a larger tank. Here's how I looked at it.
Over the 5 year useful life of an LED (Can be up to 10 years depending on photocycle and current)
6 x 100 = $600 for black boxes.
Compared to:
$40 a month on electric x 12 months x 5 years = $2400
$220 a year on halide bulbs ( would have needed 4) + 80 a year on T5 bulbs x 5 years = $1500
That's $3900 over 5 years or $3300 more than switching to black boxes. That's more than many have in there entire systems.
Or more importantly $3300 towards a better skimmer, or more corals.

For some cost is an issue, other's it is not. For some where it is not an issue, they are still frugal and look at ROI.

 

[BoneXriffic]

The cost difference can be substantial. When I switched from MH/T5 a few years ago, I went from 3 250wMH +4 T5 to 6 black boxes. Electric bill went down $40 a month. And that was with doubling the heaters and return pumps on a larger tank. Here's how I looked at it.
Over the 5 year useful life of an LED (Can be up to 10 years depending on photocycle and current)
6 x 100 = $600 for black boxes.
Compared to:
$40 a month on electric x 12 months x 5 years = $2400
$220 a year on halide bulbs ( would have needed 4) + 80 a year on T5 bulbs x 5 years = $1500
That's $3900 over 5 years or $3300 more than switching to black boxes. That's more than many have in there entire systems.
Or more importantly $3300 towards a better skimmer, or more corals.

For some cost is an issue, other's it is not. For some where it is not an issue, they are still frugal and look at ROI.

Considering the size of a system plays a big role here. I use 2 halides 250w and no t5.... there for that cost is theoretically half of what your set up would. A smaller tank even less. However, on the same note most people will take a loan on a car paying interest in large amounts towards negative equity.

@SB Reef Lights i dont mean it disrespectfully. Ido see people spend frivolously on worse things. But the end is all the same. This is an expensive hobby. And we must ask ourselves if we can afford to, and are willing to accept responsibility for the care of living creatures.

On that note. I spend the money on halides because i enjoy the look. And some people buy led for the same reason. Some like the ability to dial in colors and looks, and simulate storms. Leds are wonderful systems.

Now for the fine print. This was tequila induced and possibly makes no sense! For this I apologoze

 

[SB Reef Lights]

Considering the size of a system plays a big role here. I use 2 halides 250w and no t5.... there for that cost is theoretically half of what your set up would. A smaller tank even less. However, on the same note most people will take a loan on a car paying interest in large amounts towards negative equity.

@SB Reef Lights i dont mean it disrespectfully. Ido see people spend frivolously on worse things. But the end is all the same. This is an expensive hobby. And we must ask ourselves if we can afford to, and are willing to accept responsibility for the care of living creatures.

On that note. I spend the money on halides because i enjoy the look. And some people buy led for the same reason. Some like the ability to dial in colors and looks, and simulate storms. Leds are wonderful systems.

Now for the fine print. This was tequila induced and possibly makes no sense! For this I apologoze

Made total sense. lol. I agree the hobby can cost some coin. At the same time I have seen some excellent budget tanks. Often it's about personal choice. My 265g had a 55g home made sump and a 29g home made fuge. Worked great. 560g has a custom multi color 200g 84x24x24" acrylic sump with 2 built in fuges and an ATO container plus a skimmate locker and 8 dosing containers. Works no better but makes me feel warm and fuzzy looking at it.

 

[Sir Chris]

I have run halides for years for one simple reason. Spectral composition. It is hard to beat the spectral composition of a metal halide lamp. I manufacture lighting and do a lot of testing with a spectrometer, not a PAR meter, the facts are the facts. PAR meters cannot tell you anything about the spectral composition of the light source being tested. Apogee themselves will tell you this. Also, LED's cannot produce the UVT that halide lamps can. We are getting closer with LED's I can say that but since many corals respond to light in the UV region, halides are still your best bet for this purpose. As for power a watt is a watt no different than a photon is a photon. Energy is not free. Since the luminous efficacy of LED's and halides are similar, to produce the same amount of optical energy over a given area the same amount of energy or power will be required. Ohm's law (amps X voltage equals watts)(another note: with LED's do not use input power). The input voltage from your wall plug is stepped down allowing for more amperage to be available at the LED. So if your fixture is rated at 120 watts based on your input voltage from the wall you will use 1 Amp but if we used an easy to calculate example, the same fixture using a lower voltage LED driver say 60 volts for ease of explanation, the LED's are actually using 2 amps. If you are running an LED system check your power supply, the information is right there. What about the light readings/measurements from LED's? LED's can give misleading light readings due to the focusing optics often used but if you added up the TOTAL amount of optical energy over the same given area you get a very different picture (inverse square law). When you factor in the optical energy in the UV region halide wins hands down. Don't take my word for it, the shorter the wavelength the greater the energy level of the photon. Also in nature the light received by corals is incoherent (scattered) not focused as is the case with many LED's which is why many LED users cannot run their fixtures at 100% unless they mount them very high. By the way, LED's degrade no different than lamps or any other light source for that matter. When you replace a lamp you restore initial luminous output, where as LED's continually degrade over time. When I see the cost of many corals these days $500, even a $1000 in lamp replacement costs over a 5 year period is nothing compared to the price I see hobbyist pay for a few high end frags. With that kind of investment in corals doesn't it make sense to protect it? After 5 years what will new LED fixtures cost you? As with any lighting there are pro's and con's and in my opinion and experience, yes you can be very successful with T5, LED, and Halide it depends on the application. The biggest problem with our hobby is that it is all about absolutes. If you do not run or feed this, you cannot grow that. I say B.S. I have seen successful reef tanks under PC lighting and P.C's were essentially banished from our industry years ago in favor of T5. The irony here is a PC lamp is essentially a folded T5 lamp! They operate identically. It saddens me that with all the information available today we are still comparing light sources based on wattage and PAR when neither have anything to do with their optical and spectral performance respectively.

There's a lot of good points but the point of LEDs is that u can control the color bands so instead of blue pluses and 6 others 1 led contains the ability 2 change what spectrums that certain corals prefer so used as a solitude modular light 2 bring more spectrum 2 that given side of tank and have corals that thrive better under a redder spectrum over the blues. And there just fun so I see hybrid being the new thing. T5s supplying 80% and LEDs filling the rest and a ability 2 tune spectrums properly I will add. My new 75 wil b 4 T5s mostly blue+ and a fill spectrum or all blue/purple. And LEDs for secondary lighting and runs cooler= longer life and cheaper energy bill as power isn't waisted on hearing a hps up 2 200+ degrees.

 

[Sir Chris]

I am not familiar with the new solid state halides or the digital electronic ballast - can you post a link for me.

Go 2 a grow site like "tomatoes" and I'll find all the MH and HPS with all the info on agriculture sense. I used 2 1000 watt HpS for tomatoes and tried one with a old 24inch t5 bulbs and was shorter and lusher as hPS caused more lankyness. So it was interesting seeing it as u can keep t5s closer as the Mh burn

 

[Bbaz123456]

I use them all! I have mh's, leds, t5's, and combos of each of them. Personally, I see very little difference or advantage from one to the other on growth. Once in a while, I will get better response from moving a certain coral from one tank to the other but the majority of it is water quality. I have yet to run into a coral that can not be grown under any of the lights, including my original diy led that is 50/50 white/blue that I made 6 years ago. I highly doubt halides are ever going to dominate the market again though. Their day has past, but they will always have a place for certain reefers if they're available.

 

[Bbaz123456]

I do have a question for all you "haliders" though.
I recently tried a radium bulb with an aqua medic ballast and fried the bulb. From my research, the combo should work just fine. Has anybody ever had this issue? I took it back to my lfs store and never received credit or a new bulb. He was supposed to contact radium and see what they say but at this point, I think it's $80 down the drain.

 

[SB Reef Lights]

Go 2 a grow site like "tomatoes" and I'll find all the MH and HPS with all the info on agriculture sense. I used 2 1000 watt HpS for tomatoes and tried one with a old 24inch t5 bulbs and was shorter and lusher as hPS caused more lankyness. So it was interesting seeing it as u can keep t5s closer as the Mh burn

That is due to the spectrum shift from red to blue. The T5 had less red and more blue. Not due to intensity. Spring sunlight has more blue, fall less. So generally lights with more blue will cause plants to grow shorter with fatter leaves, red brings the opposite effect with taller spaced out thinner leaves, however more flowering. So ideally to grow plants you want a light that shifts from season to season. As well morning sun has more blue and night sun more red. So lights with some red and even green help set the plants set their circadian rhythm. IF you add a little more red before lights out, plants will start to drop some getting ready for night fall. Having more blue in the morning will get them to perk up quicker.

[HASHTAG]#thingsyoulearnfrompotgrowers[/HASHTAG]
lol

 

[BoneXriffic]

That is due to the spectrum shift from red to blue. The T5 had less red and more blue. Not due to intensity. Spring sunlight has more blue, fall less. So generally lights with more blue will cause plants to grow shorter with fatter leaves, red brings the opposite effect with taller spaced out thinner leaves, however more flowering. So ideally to grow plants you want a light that shifts from season to season. As well morning sun has more blue and night sun more red. So lights with some red and even green help set the plants set their circadian rhythm. IF you add a little more red before lights out, plants will start to drop some getting ready for night fall. Having more blue in the morning will get them to perk up quicker.

[HASHTAG]#thingsyoulearnfrompotgrowers[/HASHTAG]
lol

 

[ksc]

You should use MH for growing tomatoes. HPS is for flowering. Most growers would use MH for the bulk of the season and switch to HPS for the budding stage. I usually use the Iwasaki 6500's. I once tried a 20k Radium and it turned the tomato plants purple.

 

[srad750c]

I have done both, I used to have 2x175w MH with 2 VHO actinic, now I have 2 Kessil A360WE, only been running 14 months, corals are doing great so far. MH shows better colors of corals than LED in my case. MH in my situation covered tank better with light, I will have to supplement my tank with T5 to cut out shaded areas in my tank. So who knows may go back to MH, LED combo. Everything has pros and cons, If I had an crazy budget 2x 175W MH and 4 LED

 

[revhtree Verified Admin]

Great discussion!

 

[hart24601]

Like I said before I don't get too worked up by what people like for lighting unless I really like their tank, but T5 are a good idea for halide or LED when colonies get huge. I think it would be awesome to see LEDs that are directed into a mirrored reflector, some car headlights do that. But one area that LEDs rock with - small, nano and micro reefs. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that you would get laughed at talking about a reef in a sub 40 gallon tank. For SPS in nano reefs LEDs have been really amazing.

 

[KJAG]

You should use MH for growing tomatoes. HPS is for flowering. Most growers would use MH for the bulk of the season and switch to HPS for the budding stage. I usually use the Iwasaki 6500's. I once tried a 20k Radium and it turned the tomato plants purple.

This statement is simply not true. Period. Im a highly experienced Hydro/DWC/Organic dirt indoor grower with approx 16 years of having full time, year round garden indoors and MH absolutely does not trump HPS for growing vegetables. MH is a respected source of lighting in this regard, but my current favorite combo for tomatoes, cilantro and kale is Gavita's along with 1000W HPS. And Tons of growers choose HPS over MH with excellent results.

 

[Sir Chris]

That is due to the spectrum shift from red to blue. The T5 had less red and more blue. Not due to intensity. Spring sunlight has more blue, fall less. So generally lights with more blue will cause plants to grow shorter with fatter leaves, red brings the opposite effect with taller spaced out thinner leaves, however more flowering. So ideally to grow plants you want a light that shifts from season to season. As well morning sun has more blue and night sun more red. So lights with some red and even green help set the plants set their circadian rhythm. IF you add a little more red before lights out, plants will start to drop some getting ready for night fall. Having more blue in the morning will get them to perk up quicker.

[HASHTAG]#thingsyoulearnfrompotgrowers[/HASHTAG]
lol

I won't say but

That is due to the spectrum shift from red to blue. The T5 had less red and more blue. Not due to intensity. Spring sunlight has more blue, fall less. So generally lights with more blue will cause plants to grow shorter with fatter leaves, red brings the opposite effect with taller spaced out thinner leaves, however more flowering. So ideally to grow plants you want a light that shifts from season to season. As well morning sun has more blue and night sun more red. So lights with some red and even green help set the plants set their circadian rhythm. IF you add a little more red before lights out, plants will start to drop some getting ready for night fall. Having more blue in the morning will get them to perk up quicker.

[HASHTAG]#thingsyoulearnfrompotgrowers[/HASHTAG]
lol