Are nutrients truly zero? Is this really a problem?

[Lavey29]

Unfortunately, it's too late for one of the colonies...and I'm not sure the other will recover.

Bummer, my tank is only 8 months. I added my first SPS frag last month. A free sample from timeless corals. Looked great the first month but deep cleaning my sand spiked my phosphate and not my purple stylo is struggling. This is a very complex hobby.

 

[arking_mark]

It’s gotten so complicated! “Back in my day…” we just suffered until we broke through to the other side! And now after getting RODI to TDS=0 you add nitrates, phosphates, vodka, vinegar, 10 types of additives, Vibrant, erythro…Ugh! (And I’m not sure if things are better or easier.)

I'm not sure it's that complicated.

I'm dosing 3 things:

1. Kalkwasser for balanced Ca/Alk
2. All-for-reef for Ca/Alk needs above Kalkwasser (completely ionically balanced for the tank)
3. Carbon dosing to increase bacteria for filter feeders and help control nutrients

Back in the day, almost 30 years ago when I started reefing, I dosed Kalkwasser and a ton of supplements such as lugios Iodine, Strontium/Molibnium, Alk, calcium, trace, and a ton of snake oil.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I'm not sure it's that complicated.

I'm dosing 3 things:

1. Kalkwasser for balanced Ca/Alk
2. All-for-reef for Ca/Alk needs above Kalkwasser (completely ionically balanced for the tank)
3. Carbon dosing to increase bacteria for filter feeders and help control nutrients

Back in the day, almost 30 years ago when I started reefing, I dosed Kalkwasser and a ton of supplements such as lugios Iodine, Strontium/Molibnium, Alk, calcium, trace, and a ton of snake oil.

You’re right on the additives 30 years ago (when I started!).

 

[Nano sapiens]

It’s gotten so complicated! “Back in my day…” we just suffered until we broke through to the other side! And now after getting RODI to TDS=0 you add nitrates, phosphates, vodka, vinegar, 10 types of additives, Vibrant, erythro…Ugh! (And I’m not sure if things are better or easier.)

Well, I still run my little system like I did back then (biology doesn't change), just using a few better diagnostic tools and our accumulated in-depth coral reef related knowledge.

 

[arking_mark]

You’re right on the additives 30 years ago (when I started!).

I think the biggest difference today is that the "good guys" provide better evidence for the effectiveness of their products.

At the end of the day, we are all just trying to providing our reef livestock with what they need.

When it comes to coral, what they need isn't quite as well understood.

Corals need stable parameters, light, flow, major/minor elements/ions, and nutrients.

Stable parameters are achieved through filtration, replacement of consumed parameters, and water changes. These are more easily mastered these days.

Now nutrients are more interesting as and many typically focus on what we can measure such as N and P. However some good anecdotal evidence points to mature tanks being more successful with SPS and more sensative coral due to biodiversity. It's this biodiversity that seems to allow reefers to keep stuff that we couldn't keep years ago.

 

[arking_mark]

With my nutrients so low, my light cyano in spots in the tank has all but disappeared and my glass has transitioned to getting more of a light bacterial film...instead of the brownish film.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

With my nutrients so low, my light cyano in spots in the tank has all but disappeared and my glass has transitioned to getting more of a light bacterial film...instead of the brownish film.

The old school reefer in me would say “Well, of course. And keep it there!”

 

[ScottB]

There was a lot of good commentary in this thread. Not much I could even argue against. The post about not mixing/matching methods was particularly on point.

Back to the central question in the title. I don't run either of my systems at or near zero. One prefers 10/.1 while the other settles easily 5/.05. Keeps me clear of dinos, and I don't have to worry

But it is totally doable if you are very consistent, frequent and relatively heavy with nutrient inputs. Heavy in / heavy out. Also a bacterial method like Zeo can keep nutrient residuals super low.

I like to be able to get away from town though, and both these methods involve a little more time/work than I am comfortable leaving to someone else. (And managing 4 different auto-feeders is begging for trouble.)

 

[ScottB]

BTW, I never thought carbon dosing would be this effective or work this quickly.

I always found it more effective bringing down nitrates relative to phosphates. Then I would get the two out of wack and end up with some cyano to blow off.

 

[J1a]

I always found it more effective bringing down nitrates relative to phosphates. Then I would get the two out of wack and end up with some cyano to blow off.

Indeed, I have seen many carbon dosing aquariums invariably have to employ GFO or something similar.

 

[Mbritt]

wish I tried this before I bought 100$ worth of nopox...

Will any vodka work? Do you have a pref? I was using NoPox and got my nitrates and phosphates to 0 on the Hanna checkers. Everyone pretty much said stop the NoPox and add extra food. Is being at 0 really 0 and is it bad. I actually feed my fish and creatures pretty well each day and sometimes 2x.

 

[Pico bam]

Will any vodka work? Do you have a pref? I was using NoPox and got my nitrates and phosphates to 0 on the Hanna checkers. Everyone pretty much said stop the NoPox and add extra food. Is being at 0 really 0 and is it bad. I actually feed my fish and creatures pretty well each day and sometimes 2x.

Ive been told to just use cheap unflavored vodka. Probably higher the proof the better. And I'd start out really slow, maybe someone will chime in with experience. If I where you I'd quite dosing nopox. Your not truly at 0 and 0 because from what I understand there are different kinds of phosphates in the water and the hanna checkers not capable of testing them all, not sure if this is the case for nitrate. Staying at 0 nutrients doesn't end well. If anybody reading this and has some insight please share,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Both vodka and vinegar or a mixture are fine DIY organic carbon dosing schemes. I personally prefer vinegar, but both work.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Indeed, I have seen many carbon dosing aquariums invariably have to employ GFO or something similar.

I agree. organic carbon dosing is biased toward nitrate lowering, presumably due to denitrification that it promotes (lowering nitrate and not phosphate).

I certainly used both together, along with macroalgae, large rock filled refugia, skimming, water changes, and GAC..

 

[J1a]

I agree. organic carbon dosing is biased toward nitrate lowering, presumably due to denitrification that it promotes (lowering nitrate and not phosphate).

I certainly used both together, along with macroalgae, large rock filled refugia, skimming, water changes, and GAC..

I believe redsea or some other brands mentioned about using phosphate accumulating organisms (PAO). This is how carbon dosing is supposed to deal more effectively with phosphates. While the process is certainly possible, I have never able to achieve it when I carbon dose.

 

[ScottB]

Any cheap vodka will do. NoPox is just ethanol (vodka) and ascetic acid (vinegar).

Agree with Randy, IME it does not move the needle on Po4 much.

It is very easy to overdo this. Avoid 0/0 unless you are feeding fish multiple times per day AND have a nice mature biome.

 

[becon776]

Fwiw also have zero PO4 and 3ppm NO3. Daily algae on glass. I started my first reef in 2001. IMHO the biggest difference now is the absence of true live rock and the absence of immediate and immense biodiversity in our little microbiome. This tank has taken 3 years to fully mature with dry rock