Are water changes over rated?

[JNalley]

Wonder if he has skimmer "emergencies"?

Do you mean if his ICP comes back with "water change required", lol, that sort of emergency?

Really?? I don't think any of us are doing water changes based on test results alone, I know I'm certainly not. If something is too low, dose it up; if something is too high but the tank looks fine, let it ride... Test results inform me, they don't dictate my actions...

Or perhaps when things are going south, that sort of emergency?

Define "going south." Sometimes, big emergencies happen, like dumping an entire volume of Kalkwasser into the tank; for that, a large water change is probably necessary. Sometimes, minor emergencies happen, like coral warfare, and for that, typically, running carbon before doing a water change is probably a better approach.

Remember, a lot of stuff goes on that is never reported, tainting the discussion, rendering it useless as evidence.

It's ok to be a healthy skeptic, but this reads like, "Everyone is hiding something."

 

[areefer01]

Perhaps we need to make a distinction between water changes as a means of maintaining trace and nutrients

Is that why people do water changes though? How much maintaining of trace elements or removing of nutrients does changing 10 gallons of water a week do? There is an effective calculator though that does a decent job of estimating original vs new water.

I will say that your distinction comment bears weight. One may do water changes to export and not care about trace elements. Others may do them specifically for trace elements replenishment. Others, like me for example, do them manually today and mostly to remove some old water and introduce new. Similar to currents over a reef although on a smaller scale.

Hope your day is well.

 

[GARRIGA]

Is that why people do water changes though? How much maintaining of trace elements or removing of nutrients does changing 10 gallons of water a week do? There is an effective calculator though that does a decent job of estimating original vs new water.

I will say that your distinction comment bears weight. One may do water changes to export and not care about trace elements. Others may do them specifically for trace elements replenishment. Others, like me for example, do them manually today and mostly to remove some old water and introduce new. Similar to currents over a reef although on a smaller scale.

Hope your day is well.

Ask yourself two questions. What's in the new the old didn't have and what's in the old that shouldn't be there. If the answer is moot then so is the need to exchange old for new other than a placebo that something must have changed for the better without actual knowledge it did.

 

[apb03]

Ask yourself two questions. What's in the new the old didn't have and what's in the old that shouldn't be there. If the answer is moot then so is the need to exchange old for new other than a placebo that something must have changed for the better without actual knowledge it did.

Water changes are commonly done proactively to re-baseline water levels without extensive testing and micro-management. It's the easiest and most proven success strategy for most reefers. Advanced reefers who want to manage their water by testing and dosing specific trace elements can also be successful, without a doubt.

I think Ryan covered this thoughtfully and logically.

 

[GARRIGA]

Water changes are commonly done proactively to re-baseline water levels without extensive testing and micro-management. It's the easiest and most proven success strategy for most reefers. Advanced reefers who want to manage their water by testing and dosing specific trace elements can also be successful, without a doubt.

I think Ryan covered this thoughtfully and logically.

That's the point I'm making. For those of us seeking other means to solve trace and nutrients the need for a water change becomes more academic than pragmatic. Been researching this long before Ryan parroted others. The holy grail that makes this feasible being ICP along with old school observations. Now we have ICP-MS which ups the game by going lower than prior and apparently via more accurate means.

Boggles my mind we still stick to the dogma of exchanging water to resolve issues yet we stopped doing that before I started in the 70s to solve ammonia and nitrite. Recall the clinical method which was how I operated early 70s where 100% water change the only known solution, at least to me. Now we have carbon dosing to solve nitrates along with scrubbers which also solve phosphates although we knew the power of FW planted tanks and around the 80s I learned about caulerpa in Rubbermaid tubs and then came Adey and his scrubbers. Knew about the requirement for trace but no means of testing it. Now we can test that and last frontier being the apparent unknown for which I tend to be less concerned with. Kind of akin to constantly looking up fearing Aliens might attack just because we don't know for a fact they won't or if they exist in the first place.

Here me out. Ryan is great in getting knowledge out but he often lags because he's acquiring it from others just as we are. Saw his video shortly after RAP as I was busy talking to vendors and missed out seeing him in person. Having said that. All this knowledge I take as what it is. Knowledge but not direction. In the end I'm going to formulate my own path since my system likely differs from others and I'm not preaching one shouldn't do or do water changes other than best we all understand the reason we do anything and then each can decide on their own. Following another only works when one duplicates the other for which I'm likely not doing.

Will say this. Agree 100% not chasing perfection and why my approach since the 70s when I migrated away from the clinical method has been going as natural as possible. Those planted tanks of the 70s not that far removed from my idea of setting up an easily maintained reef tank. Main difference being those needed co2 and reefs best remove it. No water change needed. Both require supplementation. Both need trimming. Neither have aliens

 

[apb03]

What made Ryan's talk so compelling was his ability to contextualize these methods according to skill levels. He's doing the right thing in pointing out that the advice given here lacks critical context to the reader's skill level, which leads to failure despite the best intentions.

A new person to the hobby asking, "Should I water change?" The answer should only be YES 100% of the time. No water changes are an advanced approach and are perfectly viable for advanced reefers.

 

[GARRIGA]

What made Ryan's talk so compelling was his ability to contextualize these methods according to skill levels. He's doing the right thing in pointing out that the advice given here lacks critical context to the reader's skill level, which leads to failure despite the best intentions.

A new person to the hobby asking, "Should I water change?" The answer should only be YES 100% of the time. No water changes are an advanced approach and are perfectly viable for advanced reefers.

Not saying a beginner can’t keep a reef tank but I’ve always felt it was more for advance hobbyist. Same with planted tanks.

Agreed that simplest approach to success being a WC but I don’t think this discussion being had by newbies. End of day. Each best obtain as much knowledge as possible and make the best decision that fits their abilities and life style. No way I’m ever carrying a bucket again and an auto WC not pragmatic for my living space.

 

[Doctorgori]

and around the 80s I learned about caulerpa in Rubbermaid tubs and then came Adey and his scrubbers.

I did one of those, was it the Jaubert method? anyway waaaay back in the 90’s caulerpra in the sump was a thing yet somehow its imagined refugiums with algae is something new…
Same for DSB’s …anyone from Vegas recal a LFS on Nellis Blvd and Sunrise? anyway, I saw DSB’s there first and that guy swore he never changed water

 

[GARRIGA]

I did one of those, was it the Jaubert method? anyway waaaay back in the 90’s caulerpra in the sump was a thing yet somehow its imagined refugiums with algae is something new…
Same for DSB’s …anyone from Vegas recal a LFS on Nellis Blvd and Sunrise? anyway, I saw DSB’s there first and that guy swore he never changed water

Wasn't mine. Knew two guys at different LFS that told me about it. No details other than using the Rubbermaid as a sump and running an Eheim return pump. Since then I've wanted to run a sump with nothing but macroalgae and especially after learning about the Algal Turf Scrubbers. Would have been cutting edge if we knew the caulerpa wouldn't go asexual if the lights left on 24/7 or the fact they needed iron although I knew that from FW planted tanks yet never made the connection

Jaubert to me was just an undergravel plate without the lift tubes or forced flow. Best I could wrap my mind around that although don't recall learning of that until late 90s just seemed odd to me one would just put a plate under the gravel.

First I heard of DSB was some point after the 90s and can't recall when but I'm sure as you've stated someone had figured it out previously.

 

[GARRIGA]

Just a matter of fact that I think many know yet often passed over is the fact that water change only balances the ions in the portion removed and yet that left behind still needs to be corrected. Why in my simplistic and holistic approach. Might as well correct it all and avoid changing a portion. Salt manufacturers must hate me

 

[Sophie"s mom]

It amazes me why a lot of "zero water change folk" have massive skimmers and really fantastic saltwater mixing stations, lol.

I think both methods work, at the end of the day you either want to mess around with figuring out dosing for pretty much everything, or you don’t so you do water changes. I chose water changes because for me, that is works and is easier, for some, they like the challenge of figuring out dosing. And then once they do, perfect. I will stick with what works best for me.

 

[Troylee]

I did one of those, was it the Jaubert method? anyway waaaay back in the 90’s caulerpra in the sump was a thing yet somehow its imagined refugiums with algae is something new…
Same for DSB’s …anyone from Vegas recal a LFS on Nellis Blvd and Sunrise? anyway, I saw DSB’s there first and that guy swore he never changed water

I’m born and raised in Vegas.. nellis and what? No street called sunrise lol..

 

[areefer01]

I’m born and raised in Vegas.. nellis and what? No street called sunrise lol..

Nellis - spent my fair share of time TDY at that base

 

[soreefed]

I’ve had great success with weekly water changes. I also think that the water change time is time well spent with your tank.

So many times I’m thinking ugghhh water change day no I’m lazy, then I get started and quickly get entranced by my tank checking out all the nooks and crannies. Before I know it I realize why I love reefing so much.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

I’ve had great success with weekly water changes. I also think that the water change time is time well spent with your tank.

So many times I’m thinking ugghhh water change day no I’m lazy, then I get started and quickly get entranced by my tank checking out all the nooks and crannies. Before I know it I realize why I love reefing so much.

Very well put!! I could not agree more.

 

[Paul B]

I’ve had great success with weekly water changes.

I've had "Great Success" 54 years with changing water about 4 or 5 times a year.

 

[topjimmy]

Ask yourself two questions. What's in the new the old didn't have and what's in the old that shouldn't be there. If the answer is moot then so is the need to exchange old for new other than a placebo that something must have changed for the better without actual knowledge it did.

The issue with that is it could be something building up that you don't regularly test for. By the time it gets to the uh ohh stage it might be too late. I understand why people do or don't change water especially on larger tanks. For me, it's a better safe than sorry chore.

 

[merkmerk73]

I am not going to wade into the debate about whether or not you can be successful with no water changes, but I am a firm believer that clean water and frequent water changes just makes things better.

I do a 15-20% WC about every 7-10 days.

The main reason I would advocate water changes from a 'proven science' standpoint is that they mitigate the buildup of toxic trace elements over time.

 

[GARRIGA]

The issue with that is it could be something building up that you don't regularly test for. By the time it gets to the uh ohh stage it might be too late. I understand why people do or don't change water especially on larger tanks. For me, it's a better safe than sorry chore.

What would I not be testing that wouldn't be seen by ICP or typical manual tests we perform? Last I'm doing is chasing a wild goose because I think something might exist and likely don't.

 

[soreefed]

I've had "Great Success" 54 years with changing water about 4 or 5 times a year.

Are you mocking me? I’m not really sure what you are trying to say to me.