TJ's Reef
Valuable Member
Some really good responses so far but must say that I totally agree with this above post.
Cheers, Todd
Are we over thinking this hobby?
- Thread starter carolinareefguy
- Start date
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Some really good responses so far but must say that I totally agree with this above post.
Cheers, Todd
footballdude2k3
Acroholic
That's why I said what works best for your tank, these are animals, treat them well.
chrisfraser05
Community Member
got to agree with rworegon, the best post I've seen on the thread so far!
This is the site and forum where it's okay to over think things, to analyze, debate and pick apart husbandry and best practice. In a hobby where there is a tendency not to think things through, doing so in a spirited fashion is valuable, at least to me. Sure, keep is simple, but understand.....
Captain Billy
Community Member
It seems like the simplest things are the mistakes that even the most experienced hobbyist make. I try to focus evenly on all aspects, simple and complicated. Simple decisions like using live rock of course have huge benefits, but massive risks as well. It was a simple choice to use a really nice piece of LR for my nano, finding out 2 years later there is a eunice worm in the tank with my candy basslet and thing are very complicated all of the sudden. It's best to always keep things simple, but situations will always arise that make that methodology impossible. That's the nature of this hobby.
Quarantining fish is a tough topic. I have been on both ends of the spectrum, quarantining every last fish thoroughly and also relying on my instincts, by doing just as this thread discusses, not over thinking it, by simply looking at a fish and seeing how healthy it is or isn't. Anyone who has quarantined large amounts of fish, especially expensive and hard to keep fish, knows that sometimes quarantine can be as harmful as beneficial. Some fish will die in quarantine, that's all there is too it. It's a stressful process of "cleansing" a fish inside and out with harmful chemicals and a stressful environment. Some reef fish simply don't do well in isolation. They need the feeling of security a group of other happy fish gives them. Other small fish happily eating is what some types of fish need in order to start eating and adapt to captivity. Quarantine simply cannot offer that.
So what do you do? It's a tough call that every hobbyist has to make. I have the ability to quarantine many fish at one time, but I chose to buy fish from places I know they were kept in quarantine conditions, such as liveaquaria or LFS where I can see the fish and determine it's condition. As was said in another post, a qt doesn't guarantee anything but additional stress and handling of the fish. I have some fish that many other people would not want to put new fish in with that they had not personally quarantined thoroughly themselves. I routinely directly introduce new additions with my resident fish, such as a gem tang, black tang, difficult fish to keep like a pair of watanabe angels, and numerous expensive wrasses. I keep my fish healthy and have little worry that anything will happen to them. I began feeling this way after killing a few rare fish in quarantine despite having a much more advanced quarantine system than the average hobbyist. I started reevaluating my opinions about what I was doing. Fish have immune systems and are capable of surviving quite well in the wild, exposed to the very things we fear. It really just comes down to personal choice. I prefer to cause the a smallest amount of stress possible by buying from reputable sources that have quarantined the fish to some degree and sell healthy fish that are eating, and then getting the fish settled into it's permanent home as soon as possible.
Quarantining fish is a tough topic. I have been on both ends of the spectrum, quarantining every last fish thoroughly and also relying on my instincts, by doing just as this thread discusses, not over thinking it, by simply looking at a fish and seeing how healthy it is or isn't. Anyone who has quarantined large amounts of fish, especially expensive and hard to keep fish, knows that sometimes quarantine can be as harmful as beneficial. Some fish will die in quarantine, that's all there is too it. It's a stressful process of "cleansing" a fish inside and out with harmful chemicals and a stressful environment. Some reef fish simply don't do well in isolation. They need the feeling of security a group of other happy fish gives them. Other small fish happily eating is what some types of fish need in order to start eating and adapt to captivity. Quarantine simply cannot offer that.
So what do you do? It's a tough call that every hobbyist has to make. I have the ability to quarantine many fish at one time, but I chose to buy fish from places I know they were kept in quarantine conditions, such as liveaquaria or LFS where I can see the fish and determine it's condition. As was said in another post, a qt doesn't guarantee anything but additional stress and handling of the fish. I have some fish that many other people would not want to put new fish in with that they had not personally quarantined thoroughly themselves. I routinely directly introduce new additions with my resident fish, such as a gem tang, black tang, difficult fish to keep like a pair of watanabe angels, and numerous expensive wrasses. I keep my fish healthy and have little worry that anything will happen to them. I began feeling this way after killing a few rare fish in quarantine despite having a much more advanced quarantine system than the average hobbyist. I started reevaluating my opinions about what I was doing. Fish have immune systems and are capable of surviving quite well in the wild, exposed to the very things we fear. It really just comes down to personal choice. I prefer to cause the a smallest amount of stress possible by buying from reputable sources that have quarantined the fish to some degree and sell healthy fish that are eating, and then getting the fish settled into it's permanent home as soon as possible.
I'm sure I'll regret this. I’m new, and I’m not convinced either way, regarding quarantine tanks and practices.
Several people whom I respect highly as proven, accomplished and wise aquarists do not quarantine.
Consider the possibility that quarantine is an easy band wagon to jump on. Consider the possibility that well-meaning hobbyists may profess that they quarantine, but in truth do not; too embarrassed or fearful of being harangued by the pretentious to confess it.
Consider the journey most fish at your LFS have been on; “collected†from its home in the sea, or raised by a breeder, residing in some distribution point, then onto a wholesaler or retailer or two, all the while being “treated†with chemicals and isolated in purposefully unnatural environments. I really wonder if one more small isolated holding tank and a chemical bath is really the best thing for any fish at the end that journey.
Likewise, if the fish I’m buying is indeed ill or infected, and only appears healthy, there may indeed be some risk to my system if I introduce without quarantine, but, frankly, I have taken that chance and will do so again, convinced, at least at this point, it’s the best thing for it, and trusting my intuition.
I suspect there is no shortage of parasites, fungus, viruses and bacteria in any display tank, and that any sufficiently weakened fish is susceptible to illness and death. Heck, seemingly healthy fish get sick and die in truly healthy systems.
Sometimes I wonder if the whole argument for quarantine is not bolstered by some kind of weird self-supporting logic and testimony that says “well, I quarantined my fish and it died so I saved my whole tankâ€, or, “I didn’t quarantine a fish and my whole tank died, so quarantine would have saved them allâ€. Neither experience are definitively supportive of, or sufficient justification for, quarantining fish. In fact, on the contrary. The fish you bought and soaked in medications may have indeed died because it was in quarantine in the first place, and it was one “quarantine†too much. Your whole display tank may have died not because you didn’t quarantine a fish, but because your husbandry and/or discernment stinks, and one more fish was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Buy your fish and leave them be at the LFS while you watch them. Better yet, shop in your LFS’s quarantine, and time your purchases after having already watched the fish over a period of time. Acclimate to temperature, and turn your lights off when adding new fish and thereby reduce stress. Keep your tank as healthy as you possibly can, such that the best thing you can do for any fish is put it in your display. But by all means, lighten up about quarantine.
Ostracize me if you will, chasten me, whatever; but let's not consider something so subjective as quarantine as absolute truth and necessity.
(Am I overthinking this, or underthinking it? LOL)
Several people whom I respect highly as proven, accomplished and wise aquarists do not quarantine.
Consider the possibility that quarantine is an easy band wagon to jump on. Consider the possibility that well-meaning hobbyists may profess that they quarantine, but in truth do not; too embarrassed or fearful of being harangued by the pretentious to confess it.
Consider the journey most fish at your LFS have been on; “collected†from its home in the sea, or raised by a breeder, residing in some distribution point, then onto a wholesaler or retailer or two, all the while being “treated†with chemicals and isolated in purposefully unnatural environments. I really wonder if one more small isolated holding tank and a chemical bath is really the best thing for any fish at the end that journey.
Likewise, if the fish I’m buying is indeed ill or infected, and only appears healthy, there may indeed be some risk to my system if I introduce without quarantine, but, frankly, I have taken that chance and will do so again, convinced, at least at this point, it’s the best thing for it, and trusting my intuition.
I suspect there is no shortage of parasites, fungus, viruses and bacteria in any display tank, and that any sufficiently weakened fish is susceptible to illness and death. Heck, seemingly healthy fish get sick and die in truly healthy systems.
Sometimes I wonder if the whole argument for quarantine is not bolstered by some kind of weird self-supporting logic and testimony that says “well, I quarantined my fish and it died so I saved my whole tankâ€, or, “I didn’t quarantine a fish and my whole tank died, so quarantine would have saved them allâ€. Neither experience are definitively supportive of, or sufficient justification for, quarantining fish. In fact, on the contrary. The fish you bought and soaked in medications may have indeed died because it was in quarantine in the first place, and it was one “quarantine†too much. Your whole display tank may have died not because you didn’t quarantine a fish, but because your husbandry and/or discernment stinks, and one more fish was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Buy your fish and leave them be at the LFS while you watch them. Better yet, shop in your LFS’s quarantine, and time your purchases after having already watched the fish over a period of time. Acclimate to temperature, and turn your lights off when adding new fish and thereby reduce stress. Keep your tank as healthy as you possibly can, such that the best thing you can do for any fish is put it in your display. But by all means, lighten up about quarantine.
Ostracize me if you will, chasten me, whatever; but let's not consider something so subjective as quarantine as absolute truth and necessity.
(Am I overthinking this, or underthinking it? LOL)
Aquaph8
Love The Fish
What's crazy is there was a time that I wrote posts just like yours with the same thoughts, I would argue till the end about it too. Somewhere out there there's an old salt reading my posts now saying I told you so. Truth is I had to learn the hard way and when I did I still thought I could go on instinct from time to time and then I got burned again. Problem is back then when it happened I had 5 or 6 (what the LFS would call bread and butter) fish, couple clowns, a yellow tang and maybe a gramma. These days I could lose one fish that costs more than my whole tank cost back then. You just can't risk it IMO.
Trust me though, after all the traveling the last thing a fish needs is to go in my tank and get its butt kicked, a little R and R and a fat belly goes a long way.
There's not too many LFS that properly QT anything, they have too much stuff coming in on a regular basis.
Trust me though, after all the traveling the last thing a fish needs is to go in my tank and get its butt kicked, a little R and R and a fat belly goes a long way.
There's not too many LFS that properly QT anything, they have too much stuff coming in on a regular basis.
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I get it Brett. Not saying I won't change my mind. I lead with "I'm new". Just think innuendo about who should be and should not be in the hobby, and what is simple and what is not might be a little pretentious.
Aquaph8
Love The Fish
I can completely understand that, and I'll be the first to admit some of us have forgot where we came from in that regard. I assure you it took me a lot longer to learn all this stuff than most. When it comes down to it this hobby is just like any hobby aside from the fact were working with live animals, you get out of it what you put in and there's always something new to learn if you try. QT is the same way, it's a learning process that you'll make mistakes with and learn along the way. If this hobby wasn't frustrating and a pain in the butt at times it wouldn't have such a high turnover rate.
PCygni
Active Member
Hopefully, you will never have a parasite wipe out your tank. Hopefully, you won't have to sit around looking at a fallow DT for 10 weeks. Hopefully, with some luck you will never a have a lightning bolt of reality obliterate your own 'weird' brand of 'self-supporting logic.' I was one fish away from a fully stocked tank, with a mindset pretty much like yours, and then: WHAM, major paradigm shift. A QT went from being a 'subjective' abstract concept into an objective reality in a split second. But, that's just my own anecdotal experience. Hopefully, with any luck, your luck will be much better than my luck.
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rworegon
Active Member
Its impossible to buy fish from retailers that quarantine fish with anything that resembles proper quarantine protocols. Even buying from Live Aquaria they will tell you to quarantine the fish. Equating a fish's immune systems ability to fight parasites and diseases in the wild to its ability to do the same in a closed system such as our small ecosystems is completely erroneous. Just too much risk involved for me. Fish dying in quarantine is a fact of life in this hobby. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't quarantine you fish.
I only hope that when people who skip this step are honest enough to tell people when they sell livestock out of their systems. A system contaminated with Ich for example can infect anothers system when you sell or trade frags. This is why I have not only fish quarantine but also a frag system separate from my display. I hope I never again go through the devastating experience of losing 80% of the fish in two tanks because I didn't follow through with proper quarantine. All I can say is good luck to you.
rworegon
Active Member
"weird self supporting logic." Check yourself when typing this.
"Your whole display tank may have died not because you didn’t quarantine a fish, but because your husbandry and/or discernment stinks, and one more fish was the straw that broke the camel’s back."
And you cann the rest of us pretentious.
ETORRES477
Active Member
That certainly seemed pretty pretentious , some would also say misguided and arrogant.
This sounds like a blanket statement. I would have to disagree. Where I live there are a decent amount of local fish stores whose QT protocol I believe in. I would imagine in a world as big as ours there are quite a few retailers who have commendable and adequate QT methods, this statement is not fair to them.
I dont think its poor practice to have a trusted LFS QT your fish for you. I also don't think the case is closed on whether QTing is the only way to go, there are more than a few Old Salt's who do not QT and have great success. This hobby is big enough for more than 1 method. I also think progress stops when some of us act like we already have it all figured out and ignore the experience and input of others.
Aquaph8
Love The Fish
I think it's incredible if you have a LFS that has a QT protocol. I'd still use mine too but if the fish is healthy to begin with it makes it that much easier. I love that some businesses are doing this but I'd wager that most aren't and many that claim to aren't doing it long enough to insure healthy fish.
Captain Billy
Community Member
Yes, as you mentioned, protozoans can be introduced into a tank from anything, snails, crabs, clams, a frag, just about anything wet that goes into a tank could do it.
It's a novel idea to quarantine everything, but most people who put their fish through hell in quarantine then go get some snails or a sea cucumber, or a shrimp, ect. and throw it right in, oblivious to the fact they could easily introduce something as common and small as a protozoan.
To quarantine everything, literally everything must be quarantined for 10 weeks at a time. Of course you would also have to add batches of whatever you quarantined, fish, corals, inverts, once every 10 weeks....So you would have to purchase whatever you need/want over time, because let's be honest one day isn't realistic to purchase 10 weeks worth of additions. Then, once you have your "batch" ready, everything would have to start a 10 week quarantine, and then once the 10 weeks was up, adding all that livestock at once might be a little stressful, so it would take a week or two to safely integrate the new animals. So realistically that would be a week or two to accumulate your purchases, then a 10 week quarantine even for animals such as snails, crabs, cucumbers, followed by a week or so to safely add all fish, corals and inverts. How realistic does that sound? How many people, even those who quarantine fish, actually quarantine everything, and I mean everything, to this level?
I have a 300 gallon tank, and when I buy snails it's usually over 100. How does anyone here suggest you quarantine that many snails for 10 weeks, and make sure they have enough to eat and don't starve first. Same for cucumbers, how do you quarantine an animal that needs a sand bed?...I guess have a separate reef system just for quarantine but large enough to house the numbers of animals the display needs. Not realistic to run a fish free 100+ g quarantine reef just to safely house new clean up crew members, which is the size tank I would need to house the amounts of snails I purchase every 6 months. A 10g bare bottom just wouldn't cut it.
The reality of quarantine is that I've never met a reef keeper who could demonstrate that they were able to prevent any possible instance of introduction. You can't reef in a bubble, it's just not realistic.
It's a novel idea to quarantine everything, but most people who put their fish through hell in quarantine then go get some snails or a sea cucumber, or a shrimp, ect. and throw it right in, oblivious to the fact they could easily introduce something as common and small as a protozoan.
To quarantine everything, literally everything must be quarantined for 10 weeks at a time. Of course you would also have to add batches of whatever you quarantined, fish, corals, inverts, once every 10 weeks....So you would have to purchase whatever you need/want over time, because let's be honest one day isn't realistic to purchase 10 weeks worth of additions. Then, once you have your "batch" ready, everything would have to start a 10 week quarantine, and then once the 10 weeks was up, adding all that livestock at once might be a little stressful, so it would take a week or two to safely integrate the new animals. So realistically that would be a week or two to accumulate your purchases, then a 10 week quarantine even for animals such as snails, crabs, cucumbers, followed by a week or so to safely add all fish, corals and inverts. How realistic does that sound? How many people, even those who quarantine fish, actually quarantine everything, and I mean everything, to this level?
I have a 300 gallon tank, and when I buy snails it's usually over 100. How does anyone here suggest you quarantine that many snails for 10 weeks, and make sure they have enough to eat and don't starve first. Same for cucumbers, how do you quarantine an animal that needs a sand bed?...I guess have a separate reef system just for quarantine but large enough to house the numbers of animals the display needs. Not realistic to run a fish free 100+ g quarantine reef just to safely house new clean up crew members, which is the size tank I would need to house the amounts of snails I purchase every 6 months. A 10g bare bottom just wouldn't cut it.
The reality of quarantine is that I've never met a reef keeper who could demonstrate that they were able to prevent any possible instance of introduction. You can't reef in a bubble, it's just not realistic.
rworegon
Active Member
This is not a cheap hobby. Most spend more than it would cost to set up a small adequate QT tank on a single fish or coral. If you think this sounds pretentious or arrogant then I would say so be it. I guess there are a lot of us in this hobby who are.
If you can show me any local retailers that quarantine their stock for 6 weeks isolated from any incoming stock prior to offering them for sale to the public then I would gladly shop there. Please don't keep this a secret. If you want to benefit from the experienceof others then I would suggest you do some more reading, not only on this board but also recognozed industry and hobby leaders and I'm sure you will find that most if not all will say that quarantining new stock is not a luxury option but a necessity.
A for me, I do not believe, as someone posted above that quarantineing fish is torture or cruel. I do not medicate any new fish for at least the first week of quarantine unless absolutely necessary. In fact I do not medicate at all unless there are signs of ilness. For me, QT is a time when the new critter has some time to get settled, get eating without competition, destress, and become accustomed to the new environment that it will be in. When I got my Copperband Butterfly it was the quarantine period that I used to find out what foods he was willing to eat. I found that he really liked shaved scallops. Now that he has been in the DT for over a year he is also eating mysis and reef frenzy as well. About the only thing he wont eat is the occasional pellets I feed as a treat for the flame hawk who treats them like candy.
I know this is sometimes a tough subject for people to grasp but if you are truly in this for the long haul then I don't think that waiting 6 to 8 weeks between livestock purchases is unreasonable or impractable. After all, just like the reefs in the wild were not built in a day, or a few weeks, but rather took years and years to build and develop. If you look at those "Old Salts" who are sucessful, you will usually find that they have developed their methods over years of trial and error and through many mistakes. Of those who have had long term success in this hobby, those who do not quarantine are the exception, not the rule.They are also usually willing to adapt their methods based on the experience of others who are successful.
Happy reefing.
ETORRES477
Active Member
Royal Aqua World 815 65th St Brooklyn, NY 11220 Phone number (718) 238-0918, I am not sure of the name of the other but it is located on 67th St, and 7th ave Brooklyn, NY (I think but it may be the block over, call before you go). The owners name is John, here is his # 718-637-4587. Both of these stores will allow you to leave fish purchased from them in their QT for as long as you like and medicate if necessary with the understanding that once the purchase is made and livestock moved over to their QT they are not responsible for what happens to it during QT process. I know john dips all of his corals and QT's before putting in show tanks for sale. If you call Royal Aqua world ask for Ron, great guy who knows his stuff. Enjoy.
ETORRES477
Active Member
lol, you seem to enjoy telling others on what they should do and exactly how they should do it. I would imagine there is no need to read more on other sites, people can just come on here and ask you questions since you seem to have it all figured out. You can also judge them and advise them as to whether or not they even belong in this hobby. Take care
