Are we ruining the hobby???

[tautog83]

Alright so we shouldn't see any frags that are over $65 on your site because to me that's high end . I'm kidding , but honestly people live for the hype nowadays. Look what happened to the Walt Disney craze , people were buying it not because they liked it it was just because that was the popular coral to buy . Look at torch corals now .., now that they are harder to come by people are just going insane for them . I've seen single head gold torches sell for 350 a head . Some people just have more money then sense and sadly the rest of us have to suffer

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I am new (6 months) to the Marine side of the hobby and everything you said hit home with me.

I am 45 year's old and it has blown me away since getting into reefing the b.s. marketing that goes on in the reefing world. I own a business so I know a little something about marketing and I can honestly say I have never seen so much b.s.! It has almost turned me away from the hobby several times in my first 6 months.

Every YouTube channel is just another guy pushing products from their sponsors and they do all they can do to make you feel like you have to have them and can't be successful without them. From the $800 dollar controllers to the $1000 dollar lights. And I can honestly say that it is a bad look for the industry.

It also is absolutely an elitist industry. And if you are not a discerning person with regards to these things, and alot of that comes with age and wisdom, your 20 gallon AIO reef tank that cost you $175 dollars will quickly become a $2000 tank before any livestock is added. Your $2500 tank will soon become a $10,000 dollar tank before any livestock is added. And within that, you will have all kinds of contraptions hooked up everywhere because someone told you that it had to be done as they walked away smirking after selling you something.

I am trying to keep things simple on my tank just to prove that all of the crap they say you have to have is not really needed. I may be new to the reef side of the hobby but I also was not born yesterday. All of the people showing off their $800 dollar controllers, $300 dollar powerheads, and $1000 dollar lights can go try and impress some other guy because it is not impressing this guy. Not when I know it costs pennies on the dollar to produce those things.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

 

[vetteguy53081]

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

;Greedy

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I’ve been in this hobby for 20 years and have seen so many changes. LEDs were cutting edge, Ecotech pumps were being talked about, but not released. Bio balls were at the end of their popularity, 2 1/2lbs Of rock per gallon was recommended and skimmers were getting more efficient.
Part of me kind of miss those days in the hobby. I’m thankful for the leaps and bounds that we have made with the technology, but I miss that feeling of what it was like shopping for coral back then. And I laugh when we see a build thread from overseas. So many people comment on how luck they are as they purchase colonies instead of nubs. Here in the US, stores have stopped selling colonies and it’s all frags. I don’t mind spending the money on better equipment, but to spend $100+ for a 1/2” speck that will take years to develop into something that may or may not look like the photo, if I get my lighting and chemistry exactly like the condition of said picture. Providing it hasn’t been photoshopped. I’ve seen stores go out of business because they only sold colonies of amazing SPS. But because they were “ blue milli” “ green Acro” and not Chilly Willy Milli and Leprechaun Pogo Stick, they didn’t sell.
Now going to shops is kind of boring. It’s hard to find some of those bread and butter corals.

 

[ImNemo]

Funny thing is I don't know the name of any of my sps and I refuse to pay over $20 a frag. To me this is just another hobby not an investment.

 

[Terri Caton]

I'm new here with tanks but not new to ocean sports. If you scuba dive you will see "old school" who strap on an old beaten up BCD fling a tank on, strap on fins and...go. Then there are the equipment junkies. They have so much new and fancy equipment on they can barely move in the water. Yes, some of it is awesome. But none of it is needed to actually dive.

I think it is the same in any hobby/sport. Right away I caught on to the "designer" fish and corals. My first (and remaining) thought was that I didn't want anything in my tank that nature did not make. Are the designer things cool? Absolutely. Are they for me? Absolutely not.

I will say that this has been one super complicated hobby to navigate. What's the Real information? Based on what the experts say I have spent WAY more than I ever intended. Do you really need to spend $20K $50K $100K + on a tank to have a great one? I think not.

But...to each his/her own.

 

[Terri Caton]

Very good writing and well said.
That last picture- What are our kids and grandkids going to face with skyrocketing price, retail greed and many regions banning collection of fish and coral ??
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THIS HOBBY GOING FOR GENERATIONS TO COME WITH THESE BEHAVIORS ??

Personally I don't do designer anything. A lot of the new coral looks like it was harvested off the shore of a Nuclear Plant Disaster. And the fish (as in clown and others) If we were forcefully mating humans to get certain traits we'd be arrested!

I'm an definitely for captive bred. Can't stand the thought of raping the ocean for beauty in our living rooms. If I want to see stuff I can't own, I'll go scuba diving.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I'm new here with tanks but not new to ocean sports. If you scuba dive you will see "old school" who strap on an old beaten up BCD fling a tank on, strap on fins and...go. Then there are the equipment junkies. They have so much new and fancy equipment on they can barely move in the water. Yes, some of it is awesome. But none of it is needed to actually dive.

I think it is the same in any hobby/sport. Right away I caught on to the "designer" fish and corals. My first (and remaining) thought was that I didn't want anything in my tank that nature did not make. Are the designer things cool? Absolutely. Are they for me? Absolutely not.

I will say that this has been one super complicated hobby to navigate. What's the Real information? Based on what the experts say I have spent WAY more than I ever intended. Do you really need to spend $20K $50K $100K + on a tank to have a great one? I think not.

But...to each his/her own.

"Designer" corals in fact originate in the ocean. That's part of my rant, someone put a goofy name on them and claimed themselves as the discoverer. No such thing as a "designer" or "high-end" coral, it's all hype and marketing that all sellers do nowadays. Some are lighthearted about it and some take it to an extreme.

The reefkeeping hobby is a niche market. Appealing to "high-end" collectors is an even smaller piece of the pie. However, there are tons of vendors vying for those buyers--while there are fewer vendors that cater to all hobbyists or actively try to appeal to new hobbyists or strive to bring in new hobbyists or reach out to kids to spark their interest in the reefs--aquariums or not.

If hobbyists really want to make some money growing corals, concentrate not on trying to grow out and make a fortune on the latest glow in the dark Acro. Instead, grow easy to keep softies. Local stores would buy as many as you can grow. I sell tons of green star polyps, Xenia, Leathers, galaxea, etc. Those are the corals that most folks want. They all grow quickly, don't die for some silly reason, don't change in color constantly depending upon the amount of foo foo dust sprinkled on them. R2R appeals to the "desinger" crowd. All the Live Sales and Auctions. That's fine, live and let live. It's not really my way. Sometimes we all border on being the proverbial used car salesman, the auctions and live sales give me that feel.

 

[HaloPhenom27]

Glad you are doing it right. I don't mean to rip the whole industry as I know it is not everyone. The simple fact is that it is far too many and the prices border on insane with much of this stuff. I am not a guy hurting for money but I also spend wisely which is why I am not hurting for money. I also put a ton of time and research into the Marine side (countless hours and days) before ever jumping in and that has not stopped. I can not say the same for many new reefers I meet and it can hurt their pocket books at times and in many cases to no real results.

 

[Hermie]

I think this hobby has gone through a huge transformation since "The Great Recession" because home automation (and iot stuff) and because people have had money to spend. When the next recession/downturn hits, this hobby is going to lose a LOT of those new aquaculturists.

 

[Nasir]

I have been in this hobby since the early 90’s, so I’ve seen a lot and when through all the transitions. This hobby is dying. It has turned into a cash cow and isn’t enjoyable any more. People are stressed more than anything. You spend a 1000.00 on a less than an inch frag and it dies less than a month. To get started in this hobby you have to by tanks and equipment that you have to take out a small loan to purchase. I hate that we have those that feel like they can put a name on some coral and run the price up 500 percent or more. Yes it’s sad but it want stop because you have those that are going to pay regardless of what time price is. I will say I have notice that when I go to the LFS I see more and more used tanks for sale than the new ones. Think on that.

 

[Hermie]

The worst part IMO is that coral sellers get mad at people that don't spend a lot of money on frags etc. It's not that I've experienced this but I Can feel it in the prices and marketing.

 

[motortrendz]

Thw worst part is alot of these new sellers, dont even know what kink of coral they're actually selling. Carolinia, granulosa, carduus.... it's just acro now. I miss when you actually knew what the species was. Add the name that's cool but throw the species in there too. It's like saying a clown isnt a perc or occilaris it's just a nemo

 

[Braves Fan]

I think the Coral selling businesses in the hobby are soon to have the other shoe to drop ,, I really think the other shoe has already dropped ,, some of these smaller companies have to be hanging on by the skin of their teeth ,, businesses are going to be going out of business in droves jmo we will see if I am right ,, the Indo coral Ban has to be a game changer for the smaller weekly chop shop companies that relied on big weekly coral shipments arriving to supply their big weekly sales ,, the companies that put some resources into grow out systems will fair better ,, for awhile anyway ,, it takes a considerable amount of time to grow coral frags out to be of a saleable size ,, you have to have a large stock of parent colonies to grow out ,, you have to be able to grow these corals out fast enough to and be able to sell enough of them to pay your employee's and keep your lights on ,, all of this is over head these companies didn't have before the Coral Ban ,, before ,, coral shipment arrives ,, chop them up, heal them up ,, and of the site it goes in a month ,,

You would think this is good news for the largest of the coral selling companies ,, to a certain extent I would think its a good thing ,, at the end of the day though ,, the big companies are their own worst enemies ,, the game changer for them is competition ,, and not just competition from the other large companies ,, competition from the hobbyist selling in the online Forums like R2R ,, some of these hobbyist are in all actuality vendors ,, who would disagree with this ,, you know who they are ,, when you are selling corals in the Forum for sale section and have 196 pages in your post ,, your a vendor ,,, this is not a bad thing for the rest of us though ,, we don't have to pay $300 for that SPS frag the big online vendors are selling ,, we can get it from the Forum seller for $180 less .. the signal for me that competition is effecting these companies ,, the term Live Sale ,, every weekend it seems one or more of these companies is having a Live Sale ,, I think it was 3 weeks ago ,, two of the largest companies had a Live Sale on the same weekend there are only so many $$ to go around ,, I saw one company a month or so ago had a Live Sale ,, two days after the Live Sale ,, they put up a After the Live Sale page on their site ,, corals prices were discounted ,, trying to sell the corals that didn't sell during the Live Sell ,, there were 8 pages ,, 8 pages ,,, that's a lot of corals that didn't sell ,,

When its all said and done ,, the coral selling market will adjust its self ,, maybe the Indo Ban will end and save some of these companies ,, I am thinking some of the companies are trying to hold on for this to happen ,, I find it all very interesting to watch and to see how it all plays out ,,

 

[jt17]

I collected orchids for years. The name game started with orchids when they began judging. Not all individuals of a specie are the same. Some have more desirable attributes than others. If you have a plant that's judged and awarded a first class certificate, it's value increases tremendously so the grower assigns a clonal name to that clone to identify it from all other examples of that specie or hybrid. Without that moniker it would be just another specimen of that species. When the hobbyist buys that FCC plant they are assured it is a sion of the original plant, and a genetically identical clone of the award winning plant.
Similar thing is going on with corals, given a certain population there will be variability in the appearance of the individuals and we are looking for the best (whatever that means). BUT where the name game differs in corals is that too many vendors will bring in a wild colony that colors up to be amazing then they name it, chop it, and sell most of it off, and then desiring more sales will bring in more similar wild colonies of the same species and sell them under the famous clonal name, or one of their competitors will. A named coral frag should be genetically identical to the original colony. Those are the rules of the name game but many coral vendors aren't even aware of these rules.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

I think the whole thing is hilarious. I go to swaps and just smile as some vendor is selling his frags to a potential customer: "oh yeah man, that's Angry Birds, that's Joker's Revenge, those are Pink Zonkers". The potential customer asks, "are those the original Pink Zonkers, because my buddy got some Pink Zonkers and they are green and pink and these are teal and pink". Vendor says, "oh no, I got mine directly from JT and his are the originals". Passerby hears this and says, "come on man, JT's don't have the lineage, only ZZ's are real Pink Zonkers ". Now a small group converge at the booth and each says they know who had the original Pink Zonkers and these are not them. The vendor is in heated debate. In the meantime, I sell a dozen frags of my newly named Pink Zonker Bonkers, that had been $20 prior to the name change and are now $60, along with certificates of authenticity and a free sample of Wonder Food that makes them glow in the dark--everyone is now happy and feels satisfied

 

[Jacked Reefer]

It is true the prices are insane. but until a vendor sells the same corals and undercut prices i don't think it will ever change. First and foremost for most of the larger vendors out there it IS a competition, This is how they feed there family. So they will resort to fancy names and hype marketing to move big ticket items. But one thing i have noticed, Vendors tend to charge the highest price they can, They don't seek to utilize competition to their benefit. They are trying to make the most money RIGHT NOW. This will all change when a livestock vendor who understands economics comes along

 

[S2G]

I think the whole thing is hilarious. I go to swaps and just smile as some vendor is selling his frags to a potential customer: "oh yeah man, that's Angry Birds, that's Joker's Revenge, those are Pink Zonkers". The potential customer asks, "are those the original Pink Zonkers, because my buddy got some Pink Zonkers and they are green and pink and these are teal and pink". Vendor says, "oh no, I got mine directly from JT and his are the originals". Passerby hears this and says, "come on man, JT's don't have the lineage, only ZZ's are real Pink Zonkers ". Now a small group converge at the booth and each says they know who had the original Pink Zonkers and these are not them. The vendor is in heated debate. In the meantime, I sell a dozen frags of my newly named Pink Zonker Bonkers, that had been $20 prior to the name change and are now $60, along with certificates of authenticity and a free sample of Wonder Food that makes them glow in the dark--everyone is now happy and feels satisfied

This is so sad lol but not surprising. I've had to study up on coral so I know what's what. There's not a name on anything anymore. I ask about item#47 at a local shop and get a crazy response. Oh that's fruity tooty green hammer. How much? That will be $250. $250 for a regular run of the mill hammer? Dude its tooty fruity!. I wish people would do me a favor put your no name regular stuff on the left put a price on it and let me do my thing.

I went for gsp no price on it. How much for the gsp. $80 for the lime green twist and $100 for the pink polka dot twist. I look at them both look like regular gsp then I get an attitude when I pass on it.

These are real conversations I had with people.