Are we ruining the hobby???

[EMeyer]

You definitely don’t get the same results with black box led, but hey if you like the cheap stuff that doesn’t look good, has a horrible warranty and is a constant fire risk to your home among many other things I encourage you to buy the cheap black boxes. You get what you pay for.

Respectfully this is just not my experience, after having operated >16 black boxes over multiple tanks for the last 5 years.

May I ask, have you personally witnessed a black box LED causing a house fire? Or had a problem with a warranty on one?

The looks part is subjective so no one can say you're wrong there, but I'll just point out that for tanks with canopies or frag tanks, this is a moot point...

 

[DeniseAndy]

I read the first page and skipped to the last, so not sure what everyone has said. Just wanted to add that not all of us worry about names of corals. I am one that just goes by the scientific name and color. If I like it, it fits in my system, I may get it.

I do think naming everything gets out of control, but for many that is the passion. having the best, most colorful, most in demand. Not different from many other hobbies.

However, I do educational outreach programs to schools and daycares and boys and girls organizations throughout the year. They always ask the same questions (the adults and some kids), how much does it cost and how much work do you put into keeping this reef. I bring a 6g reef system to each program.

I tell them it will depend on the animals you want to keep. You can keep a beautiful, full of life reef with low budget and good maintenance. You just need commitment. I have helped set up aquariums in two classrooms and am working on setting one up at a daycare.

Once I get the main maintenance schedule taken care of and help set up the equipment and such (usually donated stuff), they are on their own. I am available for questions if needed and help anytime though. The kids and staff take care of all day to day and monthly and yearly cleaning. I only get called if something goes out (light, pump, etc).

I think you can do this hobby without the hefty price tag if you get a good solid start from experienced reefers and good planning.

I do wish colonies were sold more than the tiny frags at reasonable pricing. Most are priced for you to cut and sell. I do not cut and sell. If I trim a coral, I usually give away or add to a class tank, and sometimes (rarely) actually sell at a minimal cost.

I think many hobbyists still do this. I began keeping saltwater fish in 1994, so I have seen some changes too. Not quite like you in the business though. This ever changing world will just keep changing. Soon we will only see the animals on screens.

 

[User1]

To each their own my friend. I operate a commercial coral aquaculture facility and been using the cheapie LEDs for many years with excellent results and zero fires.

My point here is the same results can be achieved with less cost and hype. And am concerned with the direction of the hobby. No one is right or wrong, just different views and opinions.

If you are into the so-called "high-end" stuff then more power to you. However, it is not needed to achieve a beautiful reef tank. I'm not talking about doing it on the cheap and having it look like junk. Doing it on a shoestring is one thing, doing it without paying more for a brand or designer name is totally another thing.

The extremely expensive equipment, the complexity of controllers and dosers, etc, the designer names with higher prices because of that name or because of the name of the person that named it is IMO daunting to new hobbyists.

In recent years the naming craze and costs have exploded and it's all just marketing to drive sales and prices. I understand it, I just think it's ultimately destructive. That's my opinion, you are entitled to yours. Both views can coexist politely.

I sell expensive corals, cheap corals, all corals. Sales are not the point of this thread, the longer term direction of the hobby was my concern. There are folks obviously on all sides of the issue. I periodically see threads on this board where folks complain about the names and prices at the same time there are threads pitching the latest greatest new release and other threads with folks asking the designer names of their corals as though without the name they don't want them. Read through the thread and see my examples.

For those that need and love the names and prices and the latest controller or expensive LED fixture, go for it if it makes you happy and makes your reef better. Perception is reality. For those that love the hobby for the love of the animals and could care less about designer names or having the latest equipment, I'm more in your direction. As a business owner it's more in my interest to play the game, as a hobbyist at heart I miss the simple days before it all.

I understand that on R2R my views are not those of the majority. Designer names, live sales, auctions, so-called "high-end" is the dominant lifestyle. Again, to each their own.

Please don't change - if you change then I won't be able to shop here anymore. Bad enough my better half put me on a 30 day ban

I'm 10 days in and already have another list for the next sale

 

[Peace River]

I found Richard Ross' talk at MACNA about breeding corals at home very inspiring. I also had several other conversations recently centered on the same topic (some inspired by the recent articles about coral spawning at the Florida Aquarium). This makes me wonder if the high price of corals with seemingly silly names has had any effect, directly or indirectly, on the apparently heightened interest in the pursuit of sexual reproduction corals in home aquaria.

 

[Rubblereefer]

I hear you man. I’m only 35 and started reefing just a year ago but I think the hype is just insane. Reminds me of people selling pogs for 50 bucks when I was a kid. I personally won’t buy any coral over a hundred bucks, and most of mine started as 20 dollar frags. I run Chinese leds with simple no name t5s and grow corals just fine. I could afford radions and super royal nuclear intergalactic rainbow frags for 800 bucks but I just don’t hate my wallet that bad and personally think people who pay those prices for that kinda stuff exemplify the expression “a fool and his money are soon parted”

 

[Dragon52]

Very interesting reading. I first had a tank in the 70s, saltwater fish only so I know what your talking about.

 

[Tamberav]

Great post!

I would buy what I like name or no name... It's not likey friends and family care anyways....my mom's fav coral when she visited this weekend was Xenia I had in a simple macro tank. Not the acroporas or torches or what not...

I just figured names were so people could find/buy things they like that they saw in others tanks. It's sad to think someone would pass on a zoa they liked because of a name or lack of.

 

[sfin52]

Reefing on a budget. It can be done. Especially if you find a group of people that you can trade with.

What I hate is the designer brands are driving up the prices of the generic corals. I really like trying to find the generic coral that's a gem.

The only reason I like named corals is because I can be a reef geek to my non reefing friends.

I would have bought your blue zoa you should have called them cookie monsters

 

[richiero]

My friend in China says the American prices for corals and the weird names they give them are insane. He was telling me a coral he gets in China for 50-60 bucks he sees for 300-400 here in the US.

 

[flsalty]

I found Richard Ross' talk at MACNA about breeding corals at home very inspiring. I also had several other conversations recently centered on the same topic (some inspired by the recent articles about coral spawning at the Florida Aquarium). This makes me wonder if the high price of corals with seemingly silly names has had any effect, directly or indirectly, on the apparently heightened interest in the pursuit of sexual reproduction corals in home aquaria.

It seems to me that spawning corals would only serve to increase the cost. That's what happens with captive bred fish. In the case of corals it would increase the time and husbandry requirements to get a viable piece of coral to sell. And what would be the point of home breeding corals, other than being able to say you did it (which is a valid reason)? It's much easier to grow them out and chop them up.

 

[Peace River]

It seems to me that spawning corals would only serve to increase the cost. That's what happens with captive bred fish. In the case of corals it would increase the time and husbandry requirements to get a viable piece of coral to sell. And what would be the point of home breeding corals, other than being able to say you did it (which is a valid reason)? It's much easier to grow them out and chop them up.

You ask a lot a good questions! I’m not sure if you’ve watched the Richard Ross MACNA 2019 video yet - he answers most of your questions in his talk. From a conservation perspective, I believe that hobbyist are a under utilized resource.

Regarding captive bred fish, they may be more expensive now, but if they follow the trajectory of normal market conditions then they will be less expensive in the future and in some cases the only viable option.

 

[boacvh]

I am relatively new here and to reefing so can't comment how it used to be or if it has been ruined or not. But from my perspective, of the new guy, I think the hobby (addiction) and its enjoyment, is up to each one's preferences. I personally don't have any corals over $50 and enjoy the way my large GSP, my xenia, my hammer and my torch look. I just buy whatever catches my eye at my LFS and has a low price and I am not concerned with any of the overpriced corals (mainly because I doubt I could keep them alive yet so not willing to take that risk). But if someone has the money and likes to pay >$500 for a tiny frag I guess that's up to them and if I owned a store, I would definitely cater to that crowd as well . Some people also pay for overpriced shoes only because they have a specific brand on them, but cheap shoes also exist. In the end, I also see people spending thousands on RC toys, ski equipment, and several other hobbies, but anyone can also practice and enjoy those without having the latest, most costly branded equipment. As for me, like everything in this hobby, I'll just take it slow and have patience and maybe that expensive frag today might be very cheap years from now once it has been thoroughly propagated.

 

[duke62]

We can also look at in in a positive manor. People think twice now before buying a coral. How many corals died from people not being able to care for them? No one is spending 100 to 500 on a coral they can’t care for. What it does is make people do research before purchasing. And if they do it once and kill the coral they don’t think about buying another. Do I think the name thing is insane? Absolutely!! One acro has 10 different names all vying to be the leader in coral sales. What’s also crazy is going to frag swaps and seeing vendors with orange glasses on their tables to make the coral seem more then what it is. So with the bad can also come the good.

 

[jsvand5]

The named corals and tiny frags is definitely depressing compared to when I got my first tank back in the 80s. Worst part is when people fall for these names and ridiculous pictures without seeing the coral in person. Then the coral shows up and looks like a turd unless your tank is lit to make the water look like windex. One of my favorite corals in my tank is a Spathulata that I just recently got from Pacific East Aquaculture for I think $29. My other favorite is a blue Aussie frag that cost me $22 on eBay. I have quite a few of the designer acros and these two blow them away. If these two had a fancy name and were being sold by certain merchants they’d be well over $100. I guess it’s just the way it is now and if people are willing to pay the prices then it’s not going away but it’s sad to see. I’ve gotten to where I look more for acros that have interesting growth and form rather than the color because the color in pics on websites is usually not at all realistic. There are of course some vendors that take pretty representative pics but they are definitely the exception.

 

[MikeyLikesit]

Introducing my neighbor to the world of complicated sw filtration. Water leak testing. I just about have him hooked. He was looking at $700 skimmers, $500 sumps, $300 tooty fruity frags the size of a nickel and got sticker shock. I told him if he was really interested come over and I'll show some real world setups. Now were looking at cheap 75 to 125 setups. I'm going to trade him rock and sand for helping with lawn care. My other buddies are going to hook him up with free soft coral and ultra cheap acans etc. I'll quarantine his fish if he chips in a little on salt or brings beer.

wish I could trade my cabinetry/carpentry skills for saltwater stuff! Haha. Wife won’t let me spend much money

 

[Michael Gray]

wish I could trade my cabinetry/carpentry skills for saltwater stuff! Haha. Wife won’t let me spend much money

I'd take cabinetry and carpentry skills over my tank stuff any day. Best talent to have. I wish I was a wood worker.

 

[Humblefish]

wish I could trade my cabinetry/carpentry skills for saltwater stuff! Haha. Wife won’t let me spend much money

People are always looking for stands/canopies for their tanks. Build 'em, sell 'em, keep the $$$ you make off that for saltwater stuff.

 

[MikeyLikesit]

People are always looking for stands/canopies for their tanks. Build 'em, sell 'em, keep the $$$ you make off that for saltwater stuff.

Really? I have not seen many posts for that, now sure where I would look though. Maybe in the want to buy section I guess.

this is the most recent kitchen I built. The doors are touch to open and go up to the ceiling, push a button and they come Back down

I’ll have to check that out.

I’d like to contribute to this thread - I’m already exhausted of hearing alllllll these coral names. That look awful but have thousands of dollars inside of them... zero color design. Just splats of random color. I would love to see some simple tanks!

 

[Michael Gray]

Really? I have not seen many posts for that, now sure where I would look though. Maybe in the want to buy section I guess.

this is the most recent kitchen I built. The doors are touch to open and go up to the ceiling, push a button and they come Back down

I’ll have to check that out.

I’d like to contribute to this thread - I’m already exhausted of hearing alllllll these coral names. That look awful but have thousands of dollars inside of them... zero color design. Just splats of random color. I would love to see some simple tanks!

I would create a post for custom wood work like they have a 3d printing forum. A lot of reefers are looking for side cabinets for all there electronics or computer stuff or like humble said. Stands. Or maybe little something else.

Never know

 

[Humblefish]

Really? I have not seen many posts for that, now sure where I would look though. Maybe in the want to buy section I guess.

If where you live has a local club, forum or FB group... That would be where to ask. Folks are always buying new tanks or upgrading/downsizing. And the selection of aquarium stands available at many LFS leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, sometimes you can sell stands/canopies thru a LFS. I know a few LFS that would rather resell nice looking, quality aquarium furniture than the pressboard junk they get from aquarium mfgs. (Don't forget about freshwater hobbyists either.)