Argument against reverse lighting cycle on a refugium

[Scrubber_steve]

Not to respond to it *** for tat so to speak - the vast majority of readers here (myself included) have no clue what 2 screens means.

Well then, you could have asked.

Instead of asking new questions - why dont you respond to mine lol.

LOL; I'm still waiting for the evidence that using a 24/7 illumination for algae filtration is benificial. Some paper on kelp, in the arctic is not useful. LOL

Lastly - in the tropics - there is no 24 hour daylight cycle - that doesn't mean it wouldn't be beneficial or at least - non detrimental.

we'll put up the evidence, that indefinate 24/7 illumination of filtration algae types is benificial.

 

[MnFish1]

LOL; I'm still waiting for the evidence that using a 24/7 illumination for algae filtration is benificial. Some paper on kelp, in the arctic is not useful. LOL
we'll put up the evidence, that indefinate 24/7 illumination of filtration algae types is benificial.

I guess I'm not sure why I need to produce a paper. Especially if you mean a peer-reviewed paper (which I cannot find nor do I choose to waste hours looking for one). You keep repeating the question above - without answering questions posed to you. The question above as been answered by Randy already.

I do think if you're going to quote scientific articles, that at least they prove the point you're trying to make - and IMHO - the articles you quote do not provide any insight into the question discussed. In the end you say - 'its my opinion that a dark-light cycle is less stressful to macro algae'. Fine - its your opinion. Theres no 'paper' that you have provided that 'proves' that. My comments had to do with the evidence you were using to prove your thesis - not any perceived agenda that a 24/7 light schedule was 'better' than a dark-light schedule.

As I mentioned before - there are numerous papers suggesting that above certain light 'intensities' (not duration) - that macro algae are stressed. I have not seen this mentioned (anywhere) with regards to light duration.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

So, after talking to Bud Turbo I decided to give my scrubber the 24/7 illumination treatment for the past week & a half.
So far the growth has been faster & thicker than usual with seemingly no negative effects.
So in practice it seems 24/7 is ok, & my concerns were misplaced.
The only proviso is that if 24/7 illumination is to be used a lower intensity will most likely be necessary so that inorgnic nutrients are not stripped completely from the water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the update.

 

[Lasse]

Coming in late, sorry.

@Randy Holmes-Farley - I saw your references to the study about that salmon releasing more NH3/NH4 during night time compared with when they are feeding. I can´t get access to the article but it totally contradict my experiences and investigations I did on three indoors recirculated fish farms during the 80:ties. There was the ammonia excretion direct linked to feeding - starting for 2 farms direct when the first food hit the water (catfishes and grass carp) and with 1/2 hour delay in a eel farm. The probably reasons for delay in eels is their construction of the stomach - they can´t eat and melt the same time these tests - in the eel farm was done twice - same result. I took test every hour for a 24 hour period during a week with some days resting between. (I was younger at that time ). All farms had good working biofilters. All test saw a steady rise of NH4/NH3 from the beginning of the feeding period (8:00 - 20:00) and a decline of NH3/NH4 starting direct after the feeding stop. The NO2 level follow the pattern of NH3/NH4 with 30 - 60 minutes delay. In the eel farm - everything was delayed with 30 minutes. The measurements of NH3/NH4 was done with ion selective electrodes in the catfish/grass carp farm and with a photospectrometer at the eel farm.

I´ll try to get the salmon study because it contradict my result totally.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

In my case - with my refugium - the goal is not to take away nutrients in the first place (I´m adding both NO3 and PO4 at the moment and have been adding NO3 for 1.5 years and PO4 for 8 months). I use them (among other things) as a pH and O2 stabilizer. further - during daytime - I don not want my nutrients to go to the macros - I want them to go to my corals and microalgae in the DT. I run my fuge illumination between 22:00 to 12:00.

My fuge have run with the same clone of Chaeto (with minor problems half a year ago) for more than 2 years now. It is normally hard and crispy.

For the moment - I´m try to have as high and stabile pH as possible

The general discussion of 24/7 or with dark periods during some hours a day is however interesting. Is there anyone out there that have running an ATS or a fuge 24/7 for 2 years without any problems?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jon Fishman]

Just dug this thread up while googling why/if necessary to run fuge lights opposite of tank lights (since it's easier for my setup to have them running same time, but I digress)

I was under the impression the reason against 24/7 lighting for the fuge was to prevent asexual growth.

 

[Larry L]

Just dug this thread up while googling why/if necessary to run fuge lights opposite of tank lights (since it's easier for my setup to have them running same time, but I digress)

I was under the impression the reason against 24/7 lighting for the fuge was to prevent asexual growth.

The off-cycle lighting helps keep pH higher during the night. During the day when the tank lights are on, photosynthesis in the coral zooxanthellae is consuming CO2 from the water, which increases the pH. When your tank lights go out, that photosynthesis stops, so CO2 consumption stops and pH goes down. So if you run your refugium lights opposite the tank lights (not necessarily 24/7, just opposite), then the macroalgae in your refugium are photosynthesizing at night, consuming CO2 and increasing the pH when it would normally be dropping.

If your nighttime pH looks ok (even if lower than daytime) then it might not be worth the trouble to set up the alternating lighting timers.

 

[MnFish1]

The off-cycle lighting helps keep pH higher during the night. During the day when the tank lights are on, photosynthesis in the coral zooxanthellae is consuming CO2 from the water, which increases the pH. When your tank lights go out, that photosynthesis stops, so CO2 consumption stops and pH goes down. So if you run your refugium lights opposite the tank lights (not necessarily 24/7, just opposite), then the macroalgae in your refugium are photosynthesizing at night, consuming CO2 and increasing the pH when it would normally be dropping.

If your nighttime pH looks ok (even if lower than daytime) then it might not be worth the trouble to set up the alternating lighting timers.

This is true - but it also means the pH in your tank when the refugium is 'off' will be lower than if you ran it 24 / 7. I like the concept - but - Im not sure there is any benefit to having a rock stable pH - and it would likely be next to impossible to fine tune a refugium such that the pH will be any more stable.

I.e. - IMHO, I'd rather run my tank at a higher average pH over the day - and night - and not worry about a slight swing. Which is also 'normal'.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is true - but it also means the pH in your tank when the refugium is 'off' will be lower than if you ran it 24 / 7. I like the concept - but - Im not sure there is any benefit to having a rock stable pH - and it would likely be next to impossible to fine tune a refugium such that the pH will be any more stable.

I.e. - IMHO, I'd rather run my tank at a higher average pH over the day - and night - and not worry about a slight swing. Which is also 'normal'.

Ph in DT higher due to photosynthesis of coral using co2. Then
Ph of Refugium higher due to macros using co2.

IMO , as I understand the science , a 24/7 is unpredictable as the plants shut down photosynthesis as much as corals do (photo inhibition) similar to D riddles explanation of why we should use less light for corals for better growth. (Macna 2016).

 

[MnFish1]

Ph in DT higher due to photosynthesis of coral using co2. Then
Ph of Refugium higher due to macros using co2.

IMO , as I understand the science , a 24/7 is unpredictable as the plants shut down photosynthesis as much as corals do (photo inhibition) similar to D riddles explanation of why we should use less light for corals for better growth. (Macna 2016).

Corals and plants only shut down photosynthesis in the absence of light. There is evidence out there that some plants grow 'better' with a 'rest period' ie of darkness. But as @Lasse mentioned the last time this came up - there are lots of plants that don't get a rest period in Sweden in summer.

I used to do the alternate cycling - and despite the 'theory' behind it - I didn't see much difference. And - it certainly wasn't possible to get the exact correct amount of algae to mitigate the drop in pH when the lights in the tank were off - so there is still a swing. I was only saying (to me) - id rather have a higher overall pH - which is what you will have if you leave the refugium on 24/7 than care about the small swing.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Corals and plants only shut down photosynthesis in the absence of light. There is evidence out there that some plants grow 'better' with a 'rest period' ie of darkness. But as @Lasse mentioned the last time this came up - there are lots of plants that don't get a rest period in Sweden in summer.

I used to do the alternate cycling - and despite the 'theory' behind it - I didn't see much difference. And - it certainly wasn't possible to get the exact correct amount of algae to mitigate the drop in pH when the lights in the tank were off - so there is still a swing. I was only saying (to me) - id rather have a higher overall pH - which is what you will have if you leave the refugium on 24/7 than care about the small swing.

Photo inhibition is a thing.

https://orphek.com/the-myth-of-corals-requiring-unlimited-amounts-of-light/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/7/aafeature

 

[MnFish1]

Photo inhibition is a thing.

https://orphek.com/the-myth-of-corals-requiring-unlimited-amounts-of-light/

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/7/aafeature

Sorry - I don't understand. Like I said in my post - there is evidence that certain plants etc grow better with a dark rest period. In the article from Dana Riddle - for example it says 'these coral only require a fraction of the light they receive. It does not say the excess light damages them. But - in any case we're talking about Chaeto now right? not coral? My comment is only that keeping it on 24/7 keeps my overall pH higher than the reverse cycle. (I am ok with a swing from day to night) - our house is closed from November to April - so its not possible to remove Co2 etc - this method works better 'for me'. They are interesting articles. Thanks for posting them

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Sorry - I don't understand. Like I said in my post - there is evidence that certain plants etc grow better with a dark rest period. In the article from Dana Riddle - for example it says 'these coral only require a fraction of the light they receive. It does not say the excess light damages them. But - in any case we're talking about Chaeto now right? not coral? My comment is only that keeping it on 24/7 keeps my overall pH higher than the reverse cycle. (I am ok with a swing from day to night) - our house is closed from November to April - so its not possible to remove Co2 etc - this method works better 'for me'. They are interesting articles. Thanks for posting them

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoinhibition

 

[MnFish1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoinhibition

Right - like I said - there is evidence that a rest period can be beneficial in some plants. Thats true. It doesn't negate the other things I said:

1. Its impossible to match the amount of algae required/light required to 'even out' the pH over a 24 hour period.
2. Im not sure that there is evidence that Chaeto needs a rest period.

. Again thanks for the article - there is always new information

 

[jgaepi]

So what do we get for the reverse lighting cycle, a little pH bump? But if we're growing macro algae, isn't most of the food being decomposed from ammonia during the day? So we're left with whatever remnants of nitrogen at the end of the day. Sure nitrate uptake will happen overnight, but wouldn't it be better to have the macro algae compete with the nuisance algae during the day? I can see if you have no algae in the tank to running a reverse daylight cycle, but really is a small pH bump worth the competitive disadvantage of higher nutrients during the night?

Thoughts?

I searched for “why does my pH go up during the day and found this threat.
For three days in a row, I’ve had a put a splash of vinegar into my sump to get my pH below 8.45. My apex alarm keeps going off. At 8.45, a little vinegar gets me down to 8.25 and then within 24 hours, I’m back to 8.45. I can’t keep doing this everyday.

I have the typical display tank and refugium with reverse lighting schedule. Chaeto and ogo in my refugium. Display tank lights at 10 hours and refugium at 8 hours.

Please share advice.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

Has the probe been recently calibrated? Are you dosing Alk? And if so how and what?

How’s your coral? I would think you would be fine with that PH if everything in your reef is happy

 

[jgaepi]

Has the probe been recently calibrated? Are you dosing Alk? And if so how and what?

How’s your coral? I would think you would be fine with that PH if everything in your reef is happy

It is a new tank and a new probe. I recently finished my cycle and I’m fighting diatoms. The probe accurately detects the drop when I add in vinegar. I don’t dose alk.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

Diatoms is perfectly normal after a cycle. You will go thru the ugly stage. Have you check your parameters ? What of ammonia, nitrite , nitrate, phosphate ?

I have cycled a few tanks. I do a 25-50% water change depending on nitrate and phosphate levels after ammonia drops to zero. Dose ammonia again to 2ppm and if ammonia drops to zero the following day ... you are ready for fish

 

[jgaepi]

Diatoms is perfectly normal after a cycle. You will go thru the ugly stage. Have you check your parameters ? What of ammonia, nitrite , nitrate, phosphate ?

I have cycled a few tanks. I do a 25-50% water change depending on nitrate and phosphate levels after ammonia drops to zero. Dose ammonia again to 2ppm and if ammonia drops to zero the following day ... you are ready for fish

My post-cycle is right were I want it. I'm not worried about that or the diatoms. I am worried about my pH continually going up. I haven't attempted to see if it would continue up above 8.45, but it does go up from 8.2 to 8.45 in less than 24 hours. That is what I need to solve. I assume it is the refugium lighting schedule? I've never had a refugium before.