Assistance Needed: Possible Source Water Issue

[macon77]

I will start by saying that I do appreciate any assistance/insight that anyone might provide concerning an ongoing issue I have been struggling with. Thank you, in advance.

I got back into the hobby a couple of years ago, after moving to Galveston, Texas. After struggling with a couple of previous tanks here, I started my current systems (a 75 gallon display tank and 29 gallon quarantine tank) in April of this year. As with the previous tanks I have had here, I have been having issues with these since they were started.

The first issue I noted was that it took each of the tanks 3 months to cycle. Both were perpetually cloudy. I made note that there could be some underlying issue. I purchased a UV sterilizer to combat the bacterial blooms. Shortly thereafter, a bit of green algae/cyano began to develop in the quarantine tank. I purchased some copepods and amphipods and put them in the quarantine tank. These began thriving in the tank. The display tank never developed similar algae species, even when I have seeded it with rocks from the quarantine tank. There is something that appears to be diatoms in the display tank. This has not subsided, to date. I am now questioning whether, or not, it is diatoms. No pods have survived in the display tank. After six months, I added a bubble-tip anemone to the quarantine tank. It did horribly, so I moved it to the display tank. It did fairly well, so I added five more (HUGE MISTAKE). Since being added, all of the anemones have been doing terribly. There is no other livestock in either tank. Further, at this point, all of the amphipods have died in both tanks.

The thing that has struck me throughout all of this is that things seem to get worse after water changes. I began investigating our water supply, and found that the City uses chloramine to treat our water. I was unfamiliar with this, but, began learning as quickly as I could. With filters that were only used to treat about 150 gallons of product water, I discovered 1ppm ammonia in some freshly-mixed saltwater. I suspect there was probably chlorine in there, as well. I could not adequately test this. I added Seachem Prime to the display tank, as well as to my top-off water. I put carbon in a media bag in the sump of the display tank. I decided to upgrade my 4-stage BRS RODI system. I added two stages. I also added a ChlorPlus-20bb filter to the system. The system is now: sediment>ChlorPlus-20bb>Universal carbon block>Universal carbon block>membrane>dual DI. Further, I ordered a Hach total chlorine test, as I found the LaMotte test strips I had been using to be useless. After installing these upgrades a couple of days ago, everything tested out fine (241 tds going into the membrane, 7 tds coming out, 0 tds after DI). I produced 20 gallons of water (I did add Prime to this, to remove any trace ammonia in the salt mix), and changed 20 gallons of water in the display tank last night. I woke up this morning to see anemones floating around the tank. This evening, they look worse than they ever have.

I thought that I would have found the problem I have been struggling with since I moved to Galveston. I suspected I had put a solution in place which would be fool-proof. I WAS WRONG!!!

What am I missing here? What am I overlooking?

Concerning a solution, should I do a 100% water change in the quarantine tank and move the anemones into it until I can effectively do the same to the display tank? If there remains an issue with my water source, this would surely equal their deaths.

I do hate to admit it, but I am at a complete loss, here. Any insights that anyone might provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I can't see any issues with the water itself, but wonder about the salt mix if the problem only comes from water changes but not seemingly from evaporation top off.

What salt mix?

How much Prime? (I wouldn't use it unless you have an ammonia issue)

The problem may not be any "problem" with the salt, but rather some sort of biological problem (like a pathogenic bacteria) that is being limited by a shortage of some trace element (e.g., iron, etc.) until a water change brings some more of it, allowing more undesirable growth.

 

[jerseypete]

So tank cycled after 3 months. And you added an anemone after 6 months. And there is no other live stock in the tank. What was in the tank between 3-6 month.

 

[macon77]

So tank cycled after 3 months. And you added an anemone after 6 months. And there is no other live stock in the tank. What was in the tank between 3-6 month.

I ghost-fed the tank during that time. Nothing else was added.

 

[macon77]

I can't see any issues with the water itself, but wonder about the salt mix if the problem only comes from water changes but not seemingly from evaporation top off.

What salt mix?

How much Prime? (I wouldn't use it unless you have an ammonia issue)

The problem may not be any "problem" with the salt, but rather some sort of biological problem (like a pathogenic bacteria) that is being limited by a shortage of some trace element (e.g., iron, etc.) until a water change brings some more of it, allowing more undesirable growth.

I would guess that there were probably chloramines added to the tanks at various points, if not daily (via top-off). Until recently, I had never checked thoroughly. On 9/27/2015, I changed all RODI filters with the BRS replacement kit. After producing only 150 gallons of product water, there was ammonia in a batch of newly-made saltwater. I had certainly gone much longer than that before changing the filters, prior to 9/27/2015. This theory does not explain why amphipods thrived in the quarantine tank, but not in the display tank. I have done far more water changes of the quarantine tank, and the percentage-wise top-off requirement of the quarantine tank is far greater than that of the display tank.

There is a piece of information which may be useful, in evaluating all of this. As mentioned, amphipods were previously thriving in the quarantine tank. Given that an anemone got caught in a powerhead (despite employing a guard), I moved all rocks from the quarantine into the display tank, while I changed 100% of the quarantine tank water. Upon reintroducing the rocks to the quarantine tank, all amphipods have vanished. There do appear to be some copepods, which have survived.

I use Instant Ocean salt mix. The problem spans multiple boxes/batches.

Concerning Prime, I used the recommended dosage on each tank twice, two days apart. I added it to the top-off water, until I could overhaul the RODI system. I will absolutely stop using it, going forward.

I have thought about the possibility that this could be related to a pathogenic bacteria. I suspect this could be related to the frequent bacterial blooms. Using a UV sterilizer and carbon, the issue was apparently "resolved" in the display tank for quite some time (even with the removal of the sterilizer once the water cleared). The water in the display tank is currently clear, even after the 20 gallon water change. The problem in the quarantine tank has been more problematic. This could be related to the relatively increased water changes. This theory does not seem to account for the patterns of amphipod survival well.

 

[macon77]

I ghost-fed the tank during that time. Nothing else was added.

So tank cycled after 3 months. And you added an anemone after 6 months. And there is no other live stock in the tank. What was in the tank between 3-6 month.

Actually, let me recant my previous reply. I did introduce pods into the tank during that time. They did not survive. I suspected their demise was related to a lack of food. I have my doubts about that, at this point.

 

[jerseypete]

I'm no expert but it sounds like you probably didn't have enough waste to keep the cycle going? Did you feed the nems? I never heard of a nem being the first thing in the tank. Maybe throw a clown or 2 in there?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would guess that there were probably chloramines added to the tanks at various points, if not daily (via top-off). Until recently, I had never checked thoroughly.

Maybe, but I personally wouldn't assume that is what happened.

FWIW, a normal RO/DI system seems, in most cases, to deal well with chloramine without special filters. I did a test for my chloramine article where to a bunch of folks (20) tested their water, and we found chloramine was not present int eh effluent except in one case in small amounts, and in that case, replacing the filters eliminated it.

A DI that is depleting will release ammonia to the water. I've experienced that myself. So if you ran the RO/DI to the point where the TDS rose, there may have been substantial ammonia in the effluent.

Here's my chloramine article and the data in it:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

 

[macon77]

As mentioned, the tanks were ghost-fed after the initial cycle. The pods were fed daily, once introduced. The first anemone accepted food a few times. The others have done so poorly, that I suspect there is no way they would accept food. This theory does not explain the initial bacterial blooms in both tanks, which began a couple of days after the tanks were set up. They persisted until I employed a UV sterilizer (months later). They have been minimized, but have occasionally occurred after water changes.

This was intended to be a species-specific tank, with a pair of clownfish added after some time.

I will not be adding anything to the tanks, until I am comfortable that this issue has been resolved.

 

[macon77]

Maybe, but I personally wouldn't assume that is what happened.

FWIW, a normal RO/DI system seems, in most cases, to deal well with chloramine without special filters. I did a test for my chloramine article where to a bunch of folks (20) tested their water, and we found chloramine was not present int eh effluent except in one case in small amounts, and in that case, replacing the filters eliminated it.

A DI that is depleting will release ammonia to the water. I've experienced that myself. So if you ran the RO/DI to the point where the TDS rose, there may have been substantial ammonia in the effluent.

Here's my chloramine article and the data in it:

Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.htm

Indeed, I have read your article concerning chloramines. I purchased the Hach chlorine test kit, based on the fact that you employed it in your experiment. We will certainly have a clearer picture, going forward. I also improved my DI capacity (an additional canister), as well as TDS monitoring capacity. I will absolutely increase my efforts concerning these issues, in the future.

Another piece of information that may be useful is that a couple of months ago, I had set up a 10 gallon observation tank using 100% newly-made water. I introduced two live rocks that I had in the sump of the display tank. They were "destroyed" in a matter of hours. There were "strands" of what was possibly bacteria throughout the tank. I found ammonia to be at .25ppm. I could not explain the incident, and simply moved on.

I will begin a more thorough search concerning the pathogenic bacteria theory. I have been considering attempting to evaluate this using water changes in the quarantine tank. Do you have any immediate thoughts/recommendations/resources, in the meantime? Do you think I would I be looking at two complete "reboots," if this turns out to be my issue?