At a stalemate with cyano/PO4

[Dennis McGrath]

Twice a week is dosage for a dirty tank. Want to see if it will make a dent in this red turf algea. Not confident it will but trying. Not many options for this out there.

I thought once a week is for dirty tanks, and once every other week is for clean tanks?

 

[brandon429]

The correction steps documented for red brush algae and for sandbed invasions are fully opposite actions, vibrant is for neither of these. Post a pic of your tank, there are two stand out details can't wait to see.

if you have a nano reef, this isn't hard to fix at all. Even up to sixty ish gallons, not hard to fix. Interestingly, the volume of your aquarium determines the actions and not the biology your pics will show, the basic descriptions are enough to assess the system and Cory is on track he knows wheregoes detritus goes the sandbed invasion, no water dosed chems needed only certain direct cleaning actions. Red brush requires rasping, cyano and or dinos don't...pics will show what we need

You don't have to be sandbed free to be invasion free, but it's better to have no sand than dirty sand/ you likely need sandbed cleaning at least and no form of doser or remedy accomplishes that other than taking your reef apart and cleaning it. Larger tankers by and large won't put the sand back, but nano keepers usually do, hence the water volume dichotomy

Large tankers who have no invasion issues don't mind their beds nor waste in them, only those who remedy wrecked tanks care.

I've been watching reefer Bcarll77 use strategic lights out to kill his sandbed invasion we think is cyano...he cleaned the bed first and it took a couple weeks post removal to iron out

 

[rob safron]

Turf algea is only on some rocks and back glass. I have a 125 gallon and do have gravel on the bed. Can’t get great pics but here are a few.

 

[jasonrusso]

The correction steps documented for red brush algae and for sandbed invasions are fully opposite actions, vibrant is for neither of these. Post a pic of your tank, there are two stand out details can't wait to see.

if you have a nano reef, this isn't hard to fix at all. Even up to sixty ish gallons, not hard to fix. Interestingly, the volume of your aquarium determines the actions and not the biology your pics will show, the basic descriptions are enough to assess the system and Cory is on track he knows wheregoes detritus goes the sandbed invasion, no water dosed chems needed only certain direct cleaning actions. Red brush requires rasping, cyano and or dinos don't...pics will show what we need

You don't have to be sandbed free to be invasion free, but it's better to have no sand than dirty sand/ you likely need sandbed cleaning at least and no form of doser or remedy accomplishes that other than taking your reef apart and cleaning it. Larger tankers by and large won't put the sand back, but nano keepers usually do, hence the water volume dichotomy

Large tankers who have no invasion issues don't mind their beds nor waste in them, only those who remedy wrecked tanks care.

I've been watching reefer Bcarll77 use strategic lights out to kill his sandbed invasion we think is cyano...he cleaned the bed first and it took a couple weeks post removal to iron out

Here are some pictures. I had bad GHA, the vibrant took care of that but gave me cyano. Did it upset the balance?

 

[brandon429]

It's only an upset to a hands off only approach, and even so, the system will get better in time possibly as the system moves from eutrophication (invaded) to oligotrophic conditions where coralline and coral are top depositors.

the factors that control the time and actual transition for the external controlled method approach, what we add to the system's water then wait are export, water changes, competition introduced by new grazers or new input dosers that in time effect a shift and other parameters like your lighting levels and nutrient and current specifics

All that has to work together for the system to slowly painfully slowly correct itself over time.


And then there's this: 12 pages of forcing systems to comply and not waiting for a single minute in a state where the system decides how it runs and how long it takes to go oligotrophic. We get mean here

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

I'm not through rewriting the first post ignore that

Consider the level of work done restoring tanks there...that's a centralized locus of control, command and clean, purchase nothing approach which does not allow for invasion due to the work we do, a take apart skip cycle cleaning.



Applying all the steps you took and are about to take to a formerly invaded tank is one way to fix it, the system must kill, outcompete and digest internally it's former invader and its low work for the keeper.

Applying those same steps in a rip cleaned tank, with no invader mass bc we ripped it out, at the work expense of the keeper who can now truly clean because we show how to skip a recycle, is wholly different battle technique

Option one is your added doser working against 100% mass coverage

Option two is same doser added to a pristinely clean, pre exported system where the invader can't even be seen because only microscopic cells exist from the last cleaning, option two is a fell swoop clinch win and option one is just an ideal outcome that only large tankers should subject their investment to in my opinion. Sorry no shorter way to write all that heh

*if your cyano challenge tank has literally any zones where I could reach in by hand and grab rocks or sand and swish them around internally and create a massive cloud, the sandbed thread exists to remedy that total cause of the issue, nothing dosed to water will ever compete with our cleaning technique in my opinion.

 

[brandon429]

Take out a test rock of red brush invasion and use a steak knife to surgically scrape it off a rock test zone, harshly, knife it out until clean. Put peroxide on the cleaned areas, let sit out of tank five mins, rinse off and pitch back in the tank to chart it's regrowth if any among untreated rocks, and against another test rock where you only poured peroxide across the target and didn't scrape it off.

In nine days, a specific time associated with red algae battles we've listed in peroxide threads, you'll know which method works.

It doesn't mean you even have to use any of the methods, it's simply the first time you'll see compliance from a test area and you now have that upscale choice for your arsenal.

*at any time, someone might increase or decrease nitrate, or po4, or a given lucky grazer might fix things but I've never used those actions because they're external locus of control/hoping for something approach. Chemiclean doesn't address a sandbed feeding the invasion or the next invasion. This is ok for big tankers bc of volume, they need a lucky balance to be found. Where direct action was possible (willingness from the keeper) we have a very high success rate of stopping invasions by acting directly on target.


I run huge tank restoration threads and we never need to know someone's nutrient levels, nor the specifics of the invader. We just need a pic and someone who is fed up with waiting and is ready to force control.
B

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

Post 3 there has links to reefcentral peroxide thread where we give brush algae the beat down

If you don't want to knife graze the rock, margarita snails have helped in the past with some types of brush

 

[CaptainOver]

Any issues with chemiclean?

Just FYI, I'm 3 for 3 in chemiclean getting rid of cyano, but instead leading to dinos within a couple of weeks...it really messes up the bacteria balance, so use caution.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Chemi-clean is safe and Does work BUT is an alternative and Not a solution. Begin with a good water change and use a PHOS aabsorber resin or sponge

 

[jasonrusso]

Chemi-clean is safe and Does work BUT is an alternative and Not a solution. Begin with a good water change and use a PHOS aabsorber resin or sponge

Running phosguard and started dosing nopox. Chemiclean is a last resort. I'll hold off unless my corals are getting choked out.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Running phosguard and started dosing nopox. Chemiclean is a last resort. I'll hold off unless my corals are getting choked out.

Red sea NoPox very good.

 

[jasonrusso]

Red sea NoPox very good.

I'll do daily testing until levels stabilize, then I will remove the phosguard and hopefully nopox will keep things in check.

 

[BigJohnny]

@brandon429

What would you do in a 100+ gallon tank with cyano? Remove all the sand? Rinse portions at a time? Curious as I'm well aware of your strategy for the sub 60 gallon tanks. Also, do you factor in depth and age of sandbed?

 

[brandon429]

I’d like to see a full tank shot of the offender first if possible, a recent fts from yesterday or today to get an idea

I’m directly linking mentally whatever it will show to what Bcarl77 and I are doing in private message right now

His tank was large ish with a really persistent cyano invasion + sandbed and we had him do some micro modeling first, to learn dynamics of his invasion, where a portion of invaded sand was taken out from the tank via siphon and not rinsed but simply set near a window in a jar, alongside another sand jar sample that was mega rinsed in tap, refillled in seawater, to see how effective a true rinse would be

It showed strong results: rinsed + zero detritus and invader made it stop, no growback in the rinsed jar and the control still had cyano in it after simple removal and xfer into the jar with no tank support other than sandbed waste still in play.

FF two mos of work now and his ripped clean sand was taken and put back in and doesn’t have the invasion, but it’s the live rocks in the tank that he’s having to spot control even still. Our testing seems to be linking his invasion back to wherever detritus settles, from a FTS pic here we can get a glimpse of organic loading and overall bioloading etc

I personally would never own even a reef above fifty gallons without having a pond UV sterilizer in the closet ready for quick install war. It’s my no 1 war implement on large delicate tanks. Not correctly sized/pretty aquarium UVs...pond sterilizer barrel about two hundred times oversized for the job, that’s bringing a gun to a gunfight and not a knife

Uv won’t peel it off the substrates and melt the unanchored invaders, we still must hand clean and physically remove masses (like day one of any invasion where it would have taken two mins and two gallons of water to hand guide it out, but we are always told to do noting rash in reefing so invaders get the early ground always)

But that UV is the punch that prevents aggregation of the small bits left in the tank

As with any trial and retro active move on invasion an option may or may not work. This is simply recalling what worked best when we used oversized uv from prior threads it’s statistically significant to me when oversized with slow flow, Amazon sellers often allow returns on UV that weren’t awesome, less restocking fees per seller. Buy big is my reco

Pics

*also to relay a totally opposite approach I’ve not used but am seeing it more commonly employed is actually buying refugium charger kits of live pods n animals (micros, not snails and crabs common) and letting them eat the cyano with all other factors left in place and up-adjusting nitrate and phosphate to certain levels. We also have years-reported online items like mb7 bacteria and some new stuff from MLEV which are competing bottle strains and they have reports of working well.

If a rip clean is daunting and it was my tank I’d try mb7/or Mark Levenson stuff first cuz it’s an easy dose with zero side effects like chemic clean has, these may or may not work but it’s just dosing bac diversity into the system and that’s not harmful nor costly to try as competition

 

[BigJohnny]

I’d like to see a full tank shot of the offender first if possible, a recent fts from yesterday or today to get an idea

I’m directly linking mentally whatever it will show to what Bcarl77 and I are doing in private message right now

His tank was large ish with a really persistent cyano invasion + sandbed and we had him do some micro modeling first, to learn dynamics of his invasion, where a portion of invaded sand was taken out from the tank via siphon and not rinsed but simply set near a window in a jar, alongside another sand jar sample that was mega rinsed in tap, refillled in seawater, to see how effective a true rinse would be

It showed strong results: rinsed + zero detritus and invader made it stop, no growback in the rinsed jar and the control still had cyano in it after simple removal and xfer into the jar with no tank support other than sandbed waste still in play.

FF two mos of work now and his ripped clean sand was taken and put back in and doesn’t have the invasion, but it’s the live rocks in the tank that he’s having to spot control even still. Our testing seems to be linking his invasion back to wherever detritus settles, from a FTS pic here we can get a glimpse of organic loading and overall bioloading etc

I personally would never own even a reef above fifty gallons without having a pond UV sterilizer in the closet ready for quick install war. It’s my no 1 war implement on large delicate tanks. Not correctly sized/pretty aquarium UVs...pond sterilizer barrel about two hundred times oversized for the job, that’s bringing a gun to a gunfight and not a knife

Uv won’t peel it off the substrates and melt the unanchored invaders, we still must hand clean and physically remove masses (like day one of any invasion where it would have taken two mins and two gallons of water to hand guide it out, but we are always told to do noting rash in reefing so invaders get the early ground always)

But that UV is the punch that prevents aggregation of the small bits left in the tank

As with any trial and retro active move on invasion an option may or may not work. This is simply recalling what worked best when we used oversized uv from prior threads it’s statistically significant to me when oversized with slow flow, Amazon sellers often allow returns on UV that weren’t awesome, less restocking fees per seller. Buy big is my reco

Pics

*also to relay a totally opposite approach I’ve not used but am seeing it more commonly employed is actually buying refugium charger kits of live pods n animals (micros, not snails and crabs common) and letting them eat the cyano with all other factors left in place and up-adjusting nitrate and phosphate to certain levels. We also have years-reported online items like mb7 bacteria and some new stuff from MLEV which are competing bottle strains and they have reports of working well.

If a rip clean is daunting and it was my tank I’d try mb7/or Mark Levenson stuff first cuz it’s an easy dose with zero side effects like chemic clean has, these may or may not work but it’s just dosing bac diversity into the system and that’s not harmful nor costly to try as competition

Hey brandon, no example I was just asking hypothetically. Fair warning though, mb7 contains a carbon source as well and will reduce nutrient levels, which can stress corals depending on how aggressively you dose it. I'm not familiar with Mark levensons product but I have tried zeobak on a prior tank and it had no impact on the cyano.

I just know people with 75+ gallon reefs aren't really excited about the idea of pulling and rinsing all of their sand, especially if they have 2-3+ inches and many sand dwelling wrasses. If I ran into cyano so heavy I couldn't stand it, that would be what prevented me from doing that, even though it's clear it usually works. How expensive are pond uvs? High quality reef uv from for example emperor aquatics are very expensive. Do you have a brand you've used or seen used succesfully? If pond uvs are cheaper (I doubt it if you match quality to emperor aquatics) that plus stirring/removal of surface mats could be an attractive option for some.

Recently I've seen two public aquarium folks from Sweden talking about dosing sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate (I forget) to combat cyano succesfully.
I think that is one of the reasons bulk reef supply is trying it on their tank as well. Very curious to see the results and side effects because that would likely be the cheapest and simplest (as long as you are not trying to target specific numbers and phosphate doesnt plummet) option for hobbyists with larger tanks, and therefore the most attractive.

 

[cracker]

I'm also curious in about raising No3 levels to battle cyano.

 

[jasonrusso]

Hey brandon, no example I was just asking hypothetically. Fair warning though, mb7 contains a carbon source as well and will reduce nutrient levels, which can stress corals depending on how aggressively you dose it. I'm not familiar with Mark levensons product but I have tried zeobak on a prior tank and it had no impact on the cyano.

I just know people with 75+ gallon reefs aren't really excited about the idea of pulling and rinsing all of their sand, especially if they have 2-3+ inches and many sand dwelling wrasses. If I ran into cyano so heavy I couldn't stand it, that would be what prevented me from doing that, even though it's clear it usually works. How expensive are pond uvs? High quality reef uv from for example emperor aquatics are very expensive. Do you have a brand you've used or seen used succesfully? If pond uvs are cheaper (I doubt it if you match quality to emperor aquatics) that plus stirring/removal of surface mats could be an attractive option for some.

Recently I've seen two public aquarium folks from Sweden talking about dosing sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate (I forget) to combat cyano succesfully.
I think that is one of the reasons bulk reef supply is trying it on their tank as well. Very curious to see the results and side effects because that would likely be the cheapest and simplest (as long as you are not trying to target specific numbers and phosphate doesnt plummet) option for hobbyists with larger tanks, and therefore the most attractive.

On my big tank I have a TMC Vectron 600. It is IMHO (after researching how they work) the best you can get and it was $180.

 

[brandon429]

Check reviews on this bad boy

https://www.amazon.com/Laguna-Steri...targid=pla-307225003180&psc=1#customerReviews

I wouldn't run it 24 x 7 it's for temp wars. Then back in the garage rolled up


So powerful and rather cheap compared to say $800 lighting and $400 skimmers etc

Let's say someone has the ultimate horrible invasion, well second to a neomeris invasion, a Dino invasion...buy and run two of those on a removed-sandbed system getting mad assertive water changes and 1:10 peroxide dosing into the water and let's see if dino persists. Remove uvs into storage when you can pull them and no growback. Examples of war hammer UV use, the device is my secret private message weapon for bad cyano challenges

 

[Sherman]

I support rasing No3 level to battle cynao

I'm also curious in about raising No3 levels to battle cyano.

 

[BigJohnny]

I support rasing No3 level to battle cynao

You have experience with that?