At my wits end

[brandon429]

well said Bio. if someone wants to run five canisters that's not going to harm anything, being way beyond needs of surface area is the reefing way. anyones live rock on this whole forum could be taken down to a quarter of the load and still run the fish they run, I've seen cuts that low in the sand rinse thread.

so if we're all using way more live rock than needed then there's no harm in running a canister filter and two hundred pounds of bioballs as well. surface area is never going to be harmful.


for sure you should cease nitrate testing and focus on the macro, for about three straight months. Pauls nitrate hits 160 sometimes, its time to not detail nitrate for a long time and change the way you reef it will work better for sure.

keep your calcium and alk ideal instead

dont run phosphate binding media either, let that and nitrate fall where the clean tank lets them fall, all variations are ok.

 

[Jilly92]

When I got it down to 5ppm after wc they got up to 10 the day before. The wc was like 2 steps forward and 1 step back. It took about 3 months of weekly wc to get the down to about 5

Have you tested the water going in

 

[Reefer_madness78]

Have you tested the water going in

I haven't tested the water going in every week but I have a handful of times and it was never even 5. The most I seen was in between 0 and 5

 

[jurgenph]

here's my guess at what is happening.

your bio media in the cannister filter needs a low oxygen environment to reduce nitrates. right now, it's producing them. not breaking them down.

you can try the following

- slow down the flow through the filter
- remove the bio media, and let your sandbed/rock do their job, they provide enough surface area and deeeper regions that are low to zero oxygen.

J.

 

[Jilly92]

IMHO you need to add nitrate consumers like macro algae to consume the nitrates. Even just a simple egg crate partition in the display tank so have a macro area between the glass and eggcrate will do the trick. With some lighting to keep the macros thriving.

my .02

I haven't tested the water going in every week but I have a handful of times and it was never even 5. The most I seen was in between 0 and 5

That's strange. If you're buying it from lfs it should be 0

 

[lelandmarine]

The reason the nitrates get so high is because you don't have a way to get them out of your tank.

Your filtration is making the nitrates. It's not malfunctioning by doing that; that is what it's supposed to do. Your filtration takes the ammonia that your inhabitants produce, processes it into nitrites, and then processes the nitrites into nitrates.

In most reef tanks, there are a number of other things that then take the nitrates and convert them out. A protein skimmer will take those nitrates and convert them into skimmate, which you then empty out. A macroalgae refugium or algae scrubber will take those nitrates and convert them into algae, which you then harvest and toss. In very mature tanks with the right kind of anaerobic bacteria, they take those nitrates and convert them into nitrogen. And corals will take a small amount of nitrates and turn them into coral tissue. And water changes lower them by simply removing the water with 50 PPM of nitrates and replacing it with water with 0 PPM nitrates.

From what you've said, the only mechanisms you have for nitrate export are water changes and coral growth. Corals do not use much in the way of nitrates - 5-10 PPM is plenty for corals - so basically the only way you have to get rid of nitrates is to do a water change.

By comparison, in my tank (a 75 gallon tank w/ a 20 gallon sump, so about 40% more water, net, than you have), I have eight fish. I feed five times every day, and I feed quite heavily. I do a weekly 10% water change. After my tank stabilized, I have never had nitrates above 5 ppm (phosphates are another story entirely, my tank is not perfect by any means). But the difference is, I have a protein skimmer and a very productive chaeto refugium that I harvest weekly, usually a full softball-sized slug of dense, rich, green chaeto.

This isn't about your canister filter; you don't have to go out and replace it with a sump. I've had to deal with size restrictions myself, so I understand if your space doesn't permit it. But if you can find a way to add a protein skimmer, refugium or algae scrubber, you should be able to get your nitrates down.

To sum up: Your problem isn't nitrate production. You probably produce about as much nitrate as you should. Your problem is nitrate export - you don't have a solid, reliable mechanism to get the nitrates out of your water other than changing the water.

Nice explanation

 

[Reefer_madness78]

The reason the nitrates get so high is because you don't have a way to get them out of your tank.

Your filtration is making the nitrates. It's not malfunctioning by doing that; that is what it's supposed to do. Your filtration takes the ammonia that your inhabitants produce, processes it into nitrites, and then processes the nitrites into nitrates.

In most reef tanks, there are a number of other things that then take the nitrates and convert them out. A protein skimmer will take those nitrates and convert them into skimmate, which you then empty out. A macroalgae refugium or algae scrubber will take those nitrates and convert them into algae, which you then harvest and toss. In very mature tanks with the right kind of anaerobic bacteria, they take those nitrates and convert them into nitrogen. And corals will take a small amount of nitrates and turn them into coral tissue. And water changes lower them by simply removing the water with 50 PPM of nitrates and replacing it with water with 0 PPM nitrates.

From what you've said, the only mechanisms you have for nitrate export are water changes and coral growth. Corals do not use much in the way of nitrates - 5-10 PPM is plenty for corals - so basically the only way you have to get rid of nitrates is to do a water change.

By comparison, in my tank (a 75 gallon tank w/ a 20 gallon sump, so about 40% more water, net, than you have), I have eight fish. I feed five times every day, and I feed quite heavily. I do a weekly 10% water change. After my tank stabilized, I have never had nitrates above 5 ppm (phosphates are another story entirely, my tank is not perfect by any means). But the difference is, I have a protein skimmer and a very productive chaeto refugium that I harvest weekly, usually a full softball-sized slug of dense, rich, green chaeto.

This isn't about your canister filter; you don't have to go out and replace it with a sump. I've had to deal with size restrictions myself, so I understand if your space doesn't permit it. But if you can find a way to add a protein skimmer, refugium or algae scrubber, you should be able to get your nitrates down.

To sum up: Your problem isn't nitrate production. You probably produce about as much nitrate as you should. Your problem is nitrate export - you don't have a solid, reliable mechanism to get the nitrates out of your water other than changing the water.

Would the protein skimmer have to bee hob? Or how can I run a refugium without drilling? I don't really know anything about those things so my questions might sound dumb lol. I have just under 18 inch height in cabinet and 27 inches width. I only have 3 inches behind tank to the wall

 

[Reefer_madness78]

So would carbon dosing or removing biomedia or vacuuming sand bed help at all? I have noticed if I disturb the sand there is alot of cloudiness or smoke like.

 

[JCM]

How do your corals and tank look?

I dont test for or care what my Nitrates are. My tank and corals look good so I have the right amount of nitrate (as far as I'm concerned).

If everything is looking good, don't get wrapped up in a number.

 

[Biokabe]

Would the protein skimmer have to bee hob? Or how can I run a refugium without drilling? I don't really know anything about those things so my questions might sound dumb lol. I have just under 18 inch height in cabinet and 27 inches width. I only have 3 inches behind tank to the wall

Are the dimensions you give INCLUDING your canister filter (in other words, your canister is taking up some of those 27 inches) or in ADDITION to the space taken up by your filter (in other words, you have 27 inches of free space to play with)? Depending on the answer, you might have a few options. Worst-case scenario, you can give over a portion of your tank to macro algae (some of it is quite attractive, look up the tank-of-the-month from April or May to see what I mean) and grow the macro directly in your display. You'd just need to be diligent about pruning it back regularly.

You might not have the option to run a skimmer with your dimensions, at least not one that's worth spending money on. Most skimmers that are sized properly for your tank will be too tall. For example, here's an external skimmer that could be used without a sump, but it's almost 26" tall. Here's an HOB skimmer that might work, but it would rely on having space on the side of your tank to hang it (I don't think it's narrow enough to hang off the back between the wall and the back of your tank). But I think you might have to rely on other methods beyond a skimmer.

The other things you mention would likely help somewhat. Carbon dosing (like NoPox) has been shown to help reduce nitrates. Vacuuming the sandbed would likely help by removing nitrates sources (food and waste) before they can decay into nitrate.

I think your best bet, honestly, is to start carbon dosing and find some way to incorporate macroalgae into your system, whether that be in your display or in some kind of tank-mounted or in-cabinet format. Vacuuming the sandbed is also beneficial, but is a bit more of a commitment on an ongoing basis.

 

[Reefer_madness78]

How do your corals and tank look?

I dont test for or care what my Nitrates are. My tank and corals look good so I have the right amount of nitrate (as far as I'm concerned).

If everything is looking good, don't get wrapped up in a number.

Coral all seem to be growing and doing good. Tank seems fine except for the algae in the sand at the glass. And having to scrape algae off of glass every day

and this is on the rock in some places

other than that I guess everything looks good

 

[Reefer_madness78]

Are the dimensions you give INCLUDING your canister filter (in other words, your canister is taking up some of those 27 inches) or in ADDITION to the space taken up by your filter (in other words, you have 27 inches of free space to play with)? Depending on the answer, you might have a few options. Worst-case scenario, you can give over a portion of your tank to macro algae (some of it is quite attractive, look up the tank-of-the-month from April or May to see what I mean) and grow the macro directly in your display. You'd just need to be diligent about pruning it back regularly.

You might not have the option to run a skimmer with your dimensions, at least not one that's worth spending money on. Most skimmers that are sized properly for your tank will be too tall. For example, here's an external skimmer that could be used without a sump, but it's almost 26" tall. Here's an HOB skimmer that might work, but it would rely on having space on the side of your tank to hang it (I don't think it's narrow enough to hang off the back between the wall and the back of your tank). But I think you might have to rely on other methods beyond a skimmer.

The other things you mention would likely help somewhat. Carbon dosing (like NoPox) has been shown to help reduce nitrates. Vacuuming the sandbed would likely help by removing nitrates sources (food and waste) before they can decay into nitrate.

I think your best bet, honestly, is to start carbon dosing and find some way to incorporate macroalgae into your system, whether that be in your display or in some kind of tank-mounted or in-cabinet format. Vacuuming the sandbed is also beneficial, but is a bit more of a commitment on an ongoing basis.

Thank you for the help. I have 27 inches wide without canister

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Would the protein skimmer have to bee hob? Or how can I run a refugium without drilling? I don't really know anything about those things so my questions might sound dumb lol. I have just under 18 inch height in cabinet and 27 inches width. I only have 3 inches behind tank to the wall

Tunze makes a skimmer that can go in your display. I used this one on my old tank.
https://www.tunze.com/en/details/9004.000-comlineR-doc-skimmer-9004.html

 

[176327]

Canister filter isn't the problem. I also don't have room for a sump underneath or behind for a hob. The height of the Canister filter barely fits.

I don’t really have room either, and I’m not super keen on emptying my AIO to add a real sump. I have cheato back there, mechanical, and chemical filtration. No canister though.

sounds like an algae reactor/ scrubber would be good for you.

 

[Skarpz1]

A bit new myself, but wouldn't this be a case of too much filtration and not enough of a bacteria foundation, carbon /phosphate mismatch?

 

[Reefer_madness78]

A bit new myself, but wouldn't this be a case of too much filtration and not enough of a bacteria foundation, carbon /phosphate mismatch?

That's kinda what I was thinking. I thought my bacteria must not be converting nitrates into nitrogen gas. I don't get the science behind all of it fully lol

 

[Reefer_madness78]

Tunze makes a skimmer that can go in your display. I used this one on my old tank.
https://www.tunze.com/en/details/9004.000-comlineR-doc-skimmer-9004.html

Thanks. I'll look into that

 

[ZoWhat]

NO3 ppm is just a # in most cases unless its an 'off the chart' #

You may want to consider not being so worried over #s

.

 

[Mjl714]

Coral all seem to be growing and doing good. Tank seems fine except for the algae in the sand at the glass. And having to scrape algae off of glass every day

and this is on the rock in some places

other than that I guess everything looks good

I think your tank looks pretty good, I don’t see any negative signs of excessive nitrates / NO3. A healthy tank will have some signs of algae and require glass cleaning.

 

[jeffchapok]

My NO3 has been 50 for 2 years straight now. I don't care. Neither should you.