ATS system

[Striike]

Hi folks, not sure if anyone else has run across this concept, but thought it was fairly interesting. Especially the claims of being able to reduce water changes to 5-10% per year, while keeping water conditions good enough for coral growth. Some forums I read stated folks were able to run this system without a skimmer, and heavily feed their systems 5-6 times per day. This is, in conjunction with a DSB, an interesting alternative to the Berlin system.

The concept is utilizing that ugly algae we all hate, to do what it does best, remove the nasties out our system. But provide a location more ideal than our DT, so it out competes the algae in the DT. Course, I image coraline may not grow as well in this system as well, but if you're interested, here's a link.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/july2004/editorial.htm

 

[sleeper]

There is alot of information around about turf scrubbers and their benifits. Theoretically they should provide a means of nutrient export from your system, just as a fuge does. In reference to the water changes though, you would have to do alot of testing and dosing of elements that are replaced by water changes, or have several reactors. I prefer doing a weekly water change and not worring about dosing calcium, alk, and the like, but I do not have a SPS heavy tank either.

 

[ironman]

Scrubbers seemed to be alot more practical in years past. With the advanced technology in equipment like skimmers and media the algae scrubber has lost some of it luster. I like the Concept of a deep sand bed and using algae for nutrient export. I still use alot of the concepts myself. But it is more for the natural affect of the display than a true nutrient export device. There are alot of people though that use the Deep sand bed and scrubber. if nothing else it is a great fuge for pods to multiply and feed the tank

 

[Striike]

Valid points around. I've always been interested in a system without a skimmer. I see the value in them, but they also remove some good stuff at the same time. I'm curious, would top off not take care of re-vitalizing water? I add ~5 gallons per week to my 75 (total system volume is 114 gallons minus LR and LS displacement). So I'd say I add close to 300% of my volume of water per year to my system. Just a thought.
I'm with you on the dosing part. I'm not a fan of having to add stuff to my system.

 

[AlexStinson]

how in the world would top off water add anything? especially if you are using ro/di it should be nothing BUT h2o

 

[Striike]

If you are using ro/di unit, yes. In my case, I am not.

 

[Paul_N]

What do you mix with your RO/DI top off water?

 

[Striike]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]An article I found on this subject.

Saltwater Reef Aquariums and Trace Elements:
The truth[/FONT]
By Tom Lang
People are being sold a bill of goods. A bunch of hooey. A load of … Well, you get the picture. Coming home from a consultation I had completed for a woman’s reef aquarium the other day, I reflected on the nicely typed list that her local fish store had given her. It was not a list of things to do to maintain her aquarium properly, but rather a long list of additives they are suggesting she add to her aquarium water on a daily basis.
Everything from “Essential Elements†to “Micro-vert Food,†this lady was adding capful after capful of concoctions that cost anywhere from $10 to $20 a bottle. Calculating the annual amount she would have to spend for these additives based on the recommended daily dosages, I could certainly see why the store was motivated to keep her using these products. Never mind that she didn’t need any of them. Never mind that their use was causing, not correcting, some chemical imbalances in her system.
The fact is, based on published chemical assays conducted on freshly mixed synthetic seawater by Craig Bingman, Ph.D. (1999), Marlin Atkinson, Ph.D. (1998) and others over the years indicate saltwater made up for aquariums using the major brands actually has greater quantities of trace elements than are found in natural seawater. By adding to these already elevated levels, the unsuspecting reef aquarium hobbyist is not only wasting money, but also creating a chemical soup that bears less and less resemblance to the chemistry of the real ocean over time.
Coral reefs, ecosystems even more diverse than terrestrial rainforests, evolved over millions of years in incredibly stable, balanced environments. To be sure, there have been changes in the seas, but these have historically taken place over millennia. Most of the tropical marine fish and invertebrates we keep in our aquariums simply cannot tolerate chemical parameters that vary on a daily or even yearly basis.
But what are the important parameters? We know that coral skeletons contain every trace element found in seawater, but the major components are calcium and bicarbonates (Borneman, 2001). If we test for these in reef aquarium water, we find that over time calcium and bicarbonates are depleted. This makes sense since corals use these elements to build their calcium carbonate skeletons. Tests have shown the other trace elements in our aquariums are rarely depleted from their already elevated levels and there is simply no need to supplement them.
So, since we have determined that reef aquariums only need additions of calcium and bicarbonates, what do you buy from the local fish store? Why fish, corals, synthetic sea salt and test kit refills, of course. I add Mrs. Wage’s pickling lime at $4 - $5/lb. from the grocery store to freshwater and use this solution to compensate for evaporation. This takes care of the calcium and the one bag lasts me well over a year. Then I add Arm & Hammer baking soda dissolved in a cup of freshwater to take care of the bicarbonates.
And how do I know how often and how much to add? By simply testing my reef aquarium water with a calcium test kit and an alkalinity test kit once a month, I can measure the levels and calculate depletion rates. Since natural seawater around coral reefs contains anywhere from 380 – 450ppm calcium and has an alkalinity of around 2.8 millequivilents/liter (Borneman, 2001), these are my target levels. I have found that by raising my alkalinity a bit higher (3.5mEq/l) with baking soda, I can keep it from dropping below 2.8 over the course of the month as my stony corals grow and use the bicarbonate at a fast rate. In my experience, this higher level is not so far off natural seawater to have any detriment.
Once the proper levels are achieved, it is fairly simple to figure maintenance levels of calcium and bicarbonate for any given aquarium based on the monthly test result trends. Every reef aquarium has different depletion rates based on what organisms are being kept and their collective uptake requirements for growth. It follows that the quantities of calcium and bicarbonates needed to maintain optimal levels might vary considerably from one aquarium to the next.

 

[Paul_N]

That says nothing of top off water. If your talking about water changes then that is a completely different subject.

 

[Striike]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT] I add Mrs. Wage’s pickling lime at $4 - $5/lb. from the grocery store to freshwater and use this solution to compensate for evaporation. This takes care of the calcium and the one bag lasts me well over a year. Then I add Arm & Hammer baking soda dissolved in a cup of freshwater to take care of the bicarbonates.

The point I'm trying to pull out of this article, is you will have to add additives to your top off. Like sleeper mentioned, if you don't do water changes, you'd have to replace trace elements. So I don't disagree with anyone's posts above, just commenting that the ATS system has its pros, and cons that have to be considered.
Personally, I don't believe in fixing something that isn't broken. Water changes and using a skimmer are working for me, I see no reason to change that. This concept is just a different approach to maintaining water quality.

 

[Paul_N]

I do the same. It was just that your post made it sound like you added something else to your top off water. I was just curious. I agree with the article. I haven't done a water change in over 9 months. But that being said I replace salt water due to wet skimming. I was thinking of setting up an ATS on my new system just to try it out.

 

[Striike]

Nice, if you decide to do that, I'd be real interested in your experience.

 

[wicked demon]

Well, a thread I know a little about, (sorry to post in your club thread)
I have a 55 gal. "fuge" that houses only plants, mangroves, chaeto, caulerpa, kelps and algeas of all kinds, also several sponges and small mollusks. (I also run a remora pro skimmer)
Even with all this natural nutrient export after several months I decided to do a water change just to replace the trace minerals that I don't dose.
I was surprised to see the water in the buckets that came out was a little green/tan. Water clarity had deteriorated very slightly over time so slowly I had not noticed.
I believe that, over time, small amounts of contaminants that the organisms in our reef will not consume, and cannot be skimmed build to effect the water clarity and potentially even the health of the reef inhabitants.
This might have been corrected by chemical filtration or a polypad, but I did not use these approaches as I have been trying to run as close to a natural system as I can. Kinda like a "Green reef system".

 

[Striike]

Insight is appreciated. I did read that water clarity wasn't as good as a berlin system, but never found any unbiased feed back on it. Are we talking a 6 month later thing? Or 2-3 months later when you did this water change. I'm thinking a water change 2 times a year is still a nice cost saver.

 

[Weetabix7]

This thread caught my eye even though I'm not in your club.
(I'm close though, does that count??? Oak Ridge )
Anyway, I've been doing some reading on the Ecosystem Method developed by Leng Sy-- Ecoreefsystem Mud Filtration.
It's similar in the sense that it's a "natural" method of filtration that doesn't use a skimmer.
In response to the comments of wicked demon above, macroalgaes will release yellowing agents (can't remember the name for them) into the water over time, I believe when the lights are off.
Leng Sy's Ecosystem Method keeps the lights on over the fuge 24/7 to combat this and they say their water stays crystal clear as a result.
Although I've been looking, I haven't found much recent info on ppl using the Ecosystem method and their success/failure rates with it.
Ppl using it from about '98- early 2000's seem to have had good success, but not many ppl seem to be using the method now, and I'd like to know why.

 

[wicked demon]

This thread caught my eye even though I'm not in your club.
(I'm close though, does that count??? Oak Ridge )
Anyway, I've been doing some reading on the Ecosystem Method developed by Leng Sy-- Ecoreefsystem Mud Filtration.
It's similar in the sense that it's a "natural" method of filtration that doesn't use a skimmer.
In response to the comments of wicked demon above, macroalgaes will release yellowing agents (can't remember the name for them) into the water over time, I believe when the lights are off.
Leng Sy's Ecosystem Method keeps the lights on over the fuge 24/7 to combat this and they say their water stays crystal clear as a result.
Although I've been looking, I haven't found much recent info on ppl using the Ecosystem method and their success/failure rates with it.
Ppl using it from about '98- early 2000's seem to have had good success, but not many ppl seem to be using the method now, and I'd like to know why.

The macro-yellow release is new to me, (very likely a by-product from chloroplasts) I would like to know more!!
The problem with leaving the light on all the time is some plants handle that better than others, I have almost killed my mangroves by not providing a proper photo-period.

The time between water changes was probably in the range of 3-4 months, was really not visibly yellow in the tank, just side by side with a fresh bucket of new mix, and that is normal, but I just noticed it was slightly more so this time. I am sure particles from my hands, and the air have just accumulated over time.

The fact is that even the clearest reef water is going to be slightly discolored from impurities (not H2O) that are present in the reef. You cannot stop diffusion, osmosis, or dissolving, you can only use additional filtration, or filter more efficiently.

 

[Striike]

Bumping this back towards the top, there was mention in another thread on this subject.