Automatic water change VS manual

[Jakepen]

So I have to run my ATO from my garage, under my house to my tank. And it hit me, maybe I should just set up a AWC while I’m under there, just run two more lines. How many of you do this, is it worth it? Would I have to keep my saltwater constantly heated, and mixing? Also where can you constantly dispose of saltwater, without worry about corrosion?

 

[Radman73]

Fair warning that alk levels especially will drop in the premixed water after just a couple of days. I'm rethinking my plan on AWC because of this. Still worth running some lines to make a manual change easier.

 

[reefpaddy]

Fair warning that alk levels especially will drop in the premixed water after just a couple of days. I'm rethinking my plan on AWC because of this. Still worth running some lines to make a manual change easier.

Not all salt brands do this from what I have read.

 

[Radman73]

Not all salt brands do this from what I have read.

I would love to know what brand that is. There was another thread a while back and I don't remember any brand not dropping. I think people were trying to get BRS to do a comparison test.

 

[Gablami]

I did this about 6 months ago, and it was the best thing ever. I have a 35g water container in the crawlspace, fed by a float valve from a 65g fresh water container outside the house about 25 feet away. I have a 65g freshwater mixing station that I run a 1/4 rodi line into a peristaltic pump, and a 1/4 rodi line out, going into the crawlspace. In the crawlspace you'll find a network of large 3-4 inch diameter sewage drains. Either find a cleanout drain (dead end drain) or a vertical drain coming down from a sink and tap into that. I drilled and npt thread tapped a cleanout drain, and screwed in a 1/4 push connect drain with a 1 way valve.

 

[Gablami]

Fritz RPM will drop alk. Our local club tested it extensively and wrote to the company. However I use a calcium reactor and it's no big deal. For a continuous water change, you can just dose more alk into the tank and there are no significant fluctuantions. I like fritz because there is minimal precipitation and "brown crud" on all my equipment and storage containers. When you have a setup like this, it's not as easy to clean.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I would love to know what brand that is. There was another thread a while back and I don't remember any brand not dropping. I think people were trying to get BRS to do a comparison test.

Randy Holmes-Farley used to keep Instant Ocean pre-mixed for weeks. Instant Ocean has fairly high carbonate alkalinity, between 10 dKh and 11 dKh.

Even if calcium and carbonate do precipitate while the water is just sitting, the lower levels can be handled by increasing daily dosing amounts.

 

[Radman73]

Fritz RPM will drop alk. Our local club tested it extensively and wrote to the company. However I use a calcium reactor and it's no big deal. For a continuous water change, you can just dose more alk into the tank and there are no significant fluctuantions. I like fritz because there is minimal precipitation and "brown crud" on all my equipment and storage containers. When you have a setup like this, it's not as easy to clean.

I've been fortunate that with my IO I don't get any precipitation or brown crud either. And my 55gal drum has been running for a little over a year now. And yeah, not easy to clean lol! I do agree on the calc reactor. I'll have to monitor and see how it does once I get corals into the new DT. I'm hoping the Apex Trident can make this all easier to deal with. I really want to do AWC again as I hate water changes but with the new house it's a whole lot easier to do them manually. My fuge is in the garage so I just need to tee off of something, take the fuge off line, remove and add water, and put it back on line. Would probably take 5-10 minutes max.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

IMO, an AWC is a great tool. You can change water slowly and steadily over many days with little work, assuming you have a place to store the new salt water.

Whether there is preciptiation depends a bit on how high the alk is in the mix, the pH, and the temperature.

 

[Radman73]

IMO, an AWC is a great tool. You can change water slowly and steadily over many days with little work, assuming you have a place to store the new salt water.

Whether there is preciptiation depends a bit on how high the alk is in the mix, the pH, and the temperature.

Thanks Randy. So is it better to keep the water moving to keep the pH up? And do you know what temp range we should be aiming for?

 

[reefwiser]

Having done auto water changes for a while I can say this it does one thing the act of changing water only. It will not remove the need to actually clean your tank's rock work and bottom of waste that builds up during the coarse of a week. It only does the actual water change.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks Randy. So is it better to keep the water moving to keep the pH up? And do you know what temp range we should be aiming for?

No. Assuming it has no organic matter added to it (vitamins, etc.) then I'd stop stirring after initial mixing. I also would not heat it.

Since it is used slowly, there's no need to match anything to the aquarium (not salinity temp, anything). Of course, if something like salinity does not match, it will tug the parameter in that direction, but the effect is very slow and steady. If the sg of the new salt water is 1.024 and the tank is 1.026, the change after a whole day of 1% changing per day is only to sg = 1.02598)

It is just a waste of heat to heat it, and it accelerates precipitation of calcium carbonate to heat it (which is why Red Sea recommends against mixing their coral pro too long, mixing generates heat).

 

[Radman73]

No. Assuming it has no organic matter added to it (vitamins, etc.) then I'd stop stirring after initial mixing. I also would not heat it.

Since it is used slowly, there's no need to match anything to the aquarium (not salinity temp, anything). Of course, if something like salinity does not match, it will tug the parameter in that direction, but the effect is very slow and steady. If the sg of the new salt water is 1.024 and the tank is 1.026, the change after a whole day of 1% changing per day is only to sg = 1.02598)

It is just a waste of heat to heat it, and it accelerates precipitation of calcium carbonate to heat it (which is why Red Sea recommends against mixing their coral pro too long, mixing generates heat).

Perfect, thanks for the reply. I wasn't sure if there were ideal storage conditions or not though it's difficult to meet anything other than warm to hot in central Florida lol! I have been running my mixing pump for a couple of hours per day. I suppose I can save myself a minute amount of electricity but only running it to mix.

 

[JOKER]

Perfect idea. I run an AWC on my tank, and love it. Like Randy said mix your water initially and that's it. I use red sea blue bucket, and it does drop a little. I tested after 20 days and I think it dropped by 1 dkh. I change 2 gallons a day using a stenner dual head pump. My system actually removes a little more water than it replaces so I mix my water a little higher to accommodate, and it is awesome. No manual water changes makes it much more enjoyable, and the small change daily seems much more stable IMO. My system uses a 60 gallon container, and I change 2 gallons a day. I mix water once a month!!! I can change 50 gallons in a 24 hour period if needed also with the pump.

 

[luis carreiro]

Does anyone use the Genesis system for AWC?

 

[Jakepen]

Well it slipped my mind that I planned on trying the balling method on my new build, so three of my heads are reserved. Wouldn’t be able to do AWC, at least not without going back to 2 part, or getting a slave unit. What do you guys think? Try the balling method, or use 2 part?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well it slipped my mind that I planned on trying the balling method on my new build, so three of my heads are reserved. Wouldn’t be able to do AWC, at least not without going back to 2 part, or getting a slave unit. What do you guys think? Try the balling method, or use 2 part?

Based on manufacturer claims of what their commercial products accomplish (and noting that we lack any independent testing of any of these products or the associated claims), the net effect of perfect implementation of Balling and perfect implementation of a two part is essentially the same. It was pointed out to me by Tropic Marin that Balling can have a somewhat smaller effect on salinity over time and that could be true (both raise salinity).

Otherwise, there's no theoretical difference. Balling puts the sodium chloride free salt in a third part, and a two part such as B-ionic distributes the ingredients of the sodium chloride free salt mix among the two parts.

How well any company meets the perfect claims remains unknown to me, but personally I doubt that any reefer will see a substantial difference between high quality commercial two parts and Balling except in that some will impact pH in different ways and, as noted, may have less different impacts on salinity over time. Potency will certainly vary between brands too.

Also, neither of these two methods should be assumed to preclude the need or potential benefit, anyway, of trace element additives.

 

[Jakepen]

Based on manufacturer claims of what their commercial products accomplish (and noting that we lack any independent testing of any of these products or the associated claims), the net effect of perfect implementation of Balling and perfect implementation of a two part is essentially the same. It was pointed out to me by Tropic Marin that Balling can have a somewhat smaller effect on salinity over time and that could be true (both raise salinity).

Otherwise, there's no theoretical difference. Balling puts the sodium chloride free salt in a third part, and a two part such as B-ionic distributes the ingredients of the sodium chloride free salt mix among the two parts.

How well any company meets the perfect claims remains unknown to me, but personally I doubt that any reefer will see a substantial difference between high quality commercial two parts and Balling except in that some will impact pH in different ways and, as noted, may have less different impacts on salinity over time. Potency will certainly vary between brands too.

Also, neither of these two methods should be assumed to preclude the need or potential benefit, anyway, of trace element additives.

Any particular brand you would recommend for quality 2 part?

So this is the barrel (the left) I would use to hold my saltwater, do I just drop a 1/4” tube in there, or is there a better way?

 

[Jlentz]

Any particular brand you would recommend for quality 2 part?

So this is the barrel (the left) I would use to hold my saltwater, do I just drop a 1/4” tube in there, or is there a better way?

That’s how I do mine. I run a DOS for awc. It’s been going almost. Year now and I love it. I also run a calcium reactor so I’m not concerned about alk dropping in the reservoir.

 

[bgoldb]

I perform a 5% water change daily using a Neptune DOS as pictured and have been struggling lately with the logic behind this method as I don't believe it has the same benefits of performing less frequent but larger % water changes. I know someone has done the math recently and so I won't reproduce it but I believe, after some period of time, a larger water change will still need to be performed to reset the aquarium back to optimal levels as the smaller daily water changes can not effectively replace the elements being utilized.