Automatic water changes

Aries360 · Feb 15, 2023

Hello everyone, I am attempting to make a water changer that is automatic ish. Or at least a plug n play style . I know they sell small ones but I have a 400 gallon system. I have a guy that delivers a 250 gallon drum of ocean salt water outside then I run a hose from one side of my house to the other. Typically I drain my system a couple hundred gallons and then fill it up. I’m getting tired of doing a lot of work, also I worry when I stress the coral out and keep them out of water. So I would like to turn one pump on and another pump on and drain and fill at same time. I’m going to run three-quarter inch piping probably through my attic and down through the wall behind the tank into the sump. I’m trying to keep it hidden so it will pump into the sump on one side and pump out the sump where it goes through the sock. (Can’t do anything on top of tank for aesthetic preference) My question is does everybody on here feel the mag drive pumps are strong enough to pump 10 foot up in the air? Or does anyone know of an automatic water changer that is strong enough to run 60-80 feet of line each way with some upwards thrust? Thank you

p1u5h13r4m24 · Feb 15, 2023

Aries360 said:
Hello everyone, I am attempting to make a water changer that is automatic ish. Or at least a plug n play style . I know they sell small ones but I have a 400 gallon system. I have a guy that delivers a 250 gallon drum of ocean salt water outside then I run a hose from one side of my house to the other. Typically I drain my system a couple hundred gallons and then fill it up. I’m getting tired of doing a lot of work, also I worry when I stress the coral out and keep them out of water. So I would like to turn one pump on and another pump on and drain and fill at same time. I’m going to run three-quarter inch piping probably through my attic and down through the wall behind the tank into the sump. I’m trying to keep it hidden so it will pump into the sump on one side and pump out the sump where it goes through the sock. (Can’t do anything on top of tank for aesthetic preference) My question is does everybody on here feel the mag drive pumps are strong enough to pump 10 foot up in the air? Or does anyone know of an automatic water changer that is strong enough to run 60-80 feet of line each way with some upwards thrust? Thank you

p1u5h13r4m24 · Feb 15, 2023

Could you get a smart auto aqua water changer and fit a 5 or 10g bucket on each side of the tank. One for saltwater mix and the other for dirty water.
I did this on a 200g system and had it change out 1gallon a day and then I would just top off the salt water bucket as needed and empty the bad as needed. I actually ended up getting Dino’s because I stripped out too much nutrients it was too effective. However it may be a simpler solution for you. Minus the Dino’s just watch your nutrients

Rovert · Feb 15, 2023

Always wondered about this myself. If you drain and fill at the same time, aren't you dumping out (and wasting) at least some percentage of what you put in?

Seems to me that smaller, faster, more frequent changes that don't expose the corals for an extended length of time would be the better strategy, for example, 5 gallons every other day to give the water time to mix.

Following...

sdreef · Feb 15, 2023

Aries360 said:
Hello everyone, I am attempting to make a water changer that is automatic ish. Or at least a plug n play style . I know they sell small ones but I have a 400 gallon system. I have a guy that delivers a 250 gallon drum of ocean salt water outside then I run a hose from one side of my house to the other. Typically I drain my system a couple hundred gallons and then fill it up. I’m getting tired of doing a lot of work, also I worry when I stress the coral out and keep them out of water. So I would like to turn one pump on and another pump on and drain and fill at same time. I’m going to run three-quarter inch piping probably through my attic and down through the wall behind the tank into the sump. I’m trying to keep it hidden so it will pump into the sump on one side and pump out the sump where it goes through the sock. (Can’t do anything on top of tank for aesthetic preference) My question is does everybody on here feel the mag drive pumps are strong enough to pump 10 foot up in the air? Or does anyone know of an automatic water changer that is strong enough to run 60-80 feet of line each way with some upwards thrust? Thank you

I have a 330 gallon tank and have a 110 gallon salt water reservoir and mixing station located in the garage. I perform a daily 4-5 gallon water change over 12 hours. I routed 1/4" tubing 10-12' up into the attic space and it ends up being an approximately 100' horizontal run to the tank. I do a small daily automatic water change with the neptune DOS. I have the DOS in the garage due to the noise and also ran a 125' aquabus cable from the Apex at the tank to the garage to run the DOS.

It will cover the distance and height you are talking about, but it won't be able to perform the style of water change you are currently performing. I believe it can do up to 30 gallons over 24 hours.

p1u5h13r4m24 · Feb 16, 2023

Rovert said:
Always wondered about this myself. If you drain and fill at the same time, aren't you dumping out (and wasting) at least some percentage of what you put in?

Seems to me that smaller, faster, more frequent changes that don't expose the corals for an extended length of time would be the better strategy, for example, 5 gallons every other day to give the water time to mix.

Following...

The smart auto water changer will also be your auto top off. If I remember correctly there will be 2 sensors in your sump. Your ato level (which will also be your fill level) and Your drain level sensor. When it does a water change it shuts off your ato, drains out tank water until bottom sensor is reached. Than fills fresh mix water back in until the ato level is reached.

KStatefan · Feb 16, 2023

The Mag 12 and above are rated for goof flow above 10' but you are going to have to pump slow so the friction head loss does not get high in your 80' of 3/4' pipe.

srobertb · Feb 16, 2023

I use DOS pumps as others have mentioned. I change 10% a week and they run on a 24/7 cycle. You would be pushing the pumps maximum daily run time if you want to change 10% I think. The DOS pumps are located about 60’ from my tank (+4’ of lift). I made a compressor-to-1/4” RODI fitting and T’d off the fresh/waste lines with a ball valve. To clean I just attach the air compressor, open the valves on each end, and spray air in there. Works perfectly. I also use mesh filters. I clean everything yearly.

I have used the AutoAqua AWC unit. In fact up until 6 months ago I was using just the ATO portion of it (which you can turn off or on). You can hook your own pumps up to it. Autoaqua makes an adapter that plugs into an outlet, then you plug your pump directly into that and the autoaqua turns the outlet on and off so you can use larger pumps. They are reliable and easy to use. The only issue with the autoaqua AWC is that sometimes it turns itself off when there’s a power outage.

If you had an Apex, you could do the same thing with 2 pumps, some siphon breaks, and 2 sensors.

There is math involved but I believe Randy Holmes-Farley wrote a lengthy article about same-time in/out 24/7 water changes and the answer was that it really isn’t that different than a big water change.

YOYOYOReefer · Feb 16, 2023

i use litermeter pumps for ato/water changes. i use iwaki /panworld pumps for pressure situations.

Rovert · Feb 16, 2023

p1u5h13r4m24 said:
The smart auto water changer will also be your auto top off. If I remember correctly there will be 2 sensors in your sump. Your ato level (which will also be your fill level) and Your drain level sensor. When it does a water change it shuts off your ato, drains out tank water until bottom sensor is reached. Than fills fresh mix water back in until the ato level is reached.

So there is in fact 'staging' where water is removed first, then replenished. From your original post, it sounded like your plan was to put the fresh in at the same time as the old was going out. Makes sense, now. But my earlier suggestion holds... instead of 150 gallons all at the same time, perhaps 15 gallons every other day would be the better bet to not expose the animals and give the water a chance to mix.

Enderg60 · Feb 16, 2023

Im in the same boat as you. I have a 700ish gallon system and want to do 10-20 gallons a day. I opted for the kamoer x2sr. Seems to have good reviews and can do high volume accurately. Parkers reef did a nice review of it.

I have 2 DOS units doing AWCs on my QT systems at 1 gal a day and they work great but they are loud as crap. The kamoer is just as loud but it does its job much faster so its less annoying.

Disclamer: I cant attest to how it works yet since my build isnt setup yet, but its almost ready to go.

Aries360 · Feb 16, 2023

So the storage tank is outside in the elements so I’d like to get it in and out quickly. I don’t mind the water mixing too much cause he always fills up the 250 gallon outside tank(even though I only ask for 200g lol) and I only need like 150g. So I’d like the water interchange to be rather quickly. I was think of installing a sump pump in the outside storage tank and the exact gph same pump in my refugium underneath and then put them both on float switches. I’d just be screwed if the one inside failed lol. I would probably only do it when I’m home. Anyone do this yet or something equivalent? It doesn’t seem anything out there can handle large water change swaps (not drain and fill) in a short period of time?

Gtinnel · Feb 16, 2023

Rovert said:
Always wondered about this myself. If you drain and fill at the same time, aren't you dumping out (and wasting) at least some percentage of what you put in?

I believe most people who do AWC with peristaltic pumps usually remove the water and pump in the new water at the same time. As long as you remove the water “upstream” from the new water being pumped in the loss of new water is negligible.

I remember reading a thread once where someone did the math to show how effective doing it at the same time was vs the traditional doing each part separately, and it was nearly the same.

Rovert · Feb 16, 2023

Gtinnel said:
I believe most people who do AWC with peristaltic pumps usually remove the water and pump in the new water at the same time. As long as you remove the water “upstream” from the new water being pumped in the loss of new water is negligible.

I remember reading a thread once where someone did the math to show how effective doing it at the same time was vs the traditional doing each part separately, and it was nearly the same.

Interesting. I haven't seen that post, but that seems counter-intuitive to me. With tanks that have constant circulation from return pumps and powerheads, it seems there is no 'upstream' when water is constantly mixing, and you no sooner put the fresh stuff in than you pump it out. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I'm nowhere near close to automating a system, so I have time to get my head around the process.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 16, 2023

Rovert said:
Always wondered about this myself. If you drain and fill at the same time, aren't you dumping out (and wasting) at least some percentage of what you put in?

Seems to me that smaller, faster, more frequent changes that don't expose the corals for an extended length of time would be the better strategy, for example, 5 gallons every other day to give the water time to mix.

Following...

The difference between continuous water changes, and smaller out then in water changes is very small, and one can even do better by putting the removal point just upstream of the addition point.

This table shows the effective amount changed from various water change scenarios, not counting the ability to do what I suggested above about removal location:

Water Changes in Reef Aquaria by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Water change efficiency for 30% of the total water volume changed.


Changes (percent x number)	Initial Impurities Removed (percent)	Initial Impurities Remaining (percent)
0	0	100
continuous	25.92	74.08
0.25 x 120	25.95	74.05
0.5 x 60	25.97	74.03
1 x 30	26.0	74.00
2 x 15	26.1	73.9
3 x 10	26.3	73.7
5 x 6	26.5	73.5
6 x 5	26.6	73.4
10 x 3	27.1	72.9
15 x 2	27.8	72.2
30 x 1	30.0	70.0

KStatefan · Feb 16, 2023

Aries360 said:
So the storage tank is outside in the elements so I’d like to get it in and out quickly. I don’t mind the water mixing too much cause he always fills up the 250 gallon outside tank(even though I only ask for 200g lol) and I only need like 150g. So I’d like the water interchange to be rather quickly. I was think of installing a sump pump in the outside storage tank and the exact gph same pump in my refugium underneath and then put them both on float switches. I’d just be screwed if the one inside failed lol. I would probably only do it when I’m home. Anyone do this yet or something equivalent? It doesn’t seem anything out there can handle large water change swaps (not drain and fill) in a short period of time?

I think people are missing the part about your new water sitting in a tote on the driveway.

I think using float valves is a failure waiting to happen.

I would want to be there to control things start the pump removing water and have a valve on the new water and control that manually to maintain sump level.

Gtinnel · Feb 16, 2023

Rovert said:
Interesting. I haven't seen that post, but that seems counter-intuitive to me. With tanks that have constant circulation from return pumps and powerheads, it seems there is no 'upstream' when water is constantly mixing, and you no sooner put the fresh stuff in than you pump it out. I'm sure there's something I'm missing, but I'm nowhere near close to automating a system, so I have time to get my head around the process.

By upstream I mean to remove the water at the beginning of the sump then return the water at the end of the sump. That essentially requires the new water to go through the tank before being removed by the water change. You are absolutely right that some of the new water will get removed though.
I do them simultaneously so that I don’t have to worry about the ATO. Well that plus my pump is one motor with two heads so I actually have no choice but to do them simultaneously without buying a second pump.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 16, 2023

Gtinnel said:
By upstream I mean to remove the water at the beginning of the sump then return the water at the end of the sump. That essentially requires the new water to go through the tank before being removed by the water change. You are absolutely right that some of the new water will get removed though.
I do them simultaneously so that I don’t have to worry about the ATO. Well that plus my pump is one motor with two heads so I actually have no choice but to do them simultaneously without buying a second pump.

That's what I did as well. Removed the old water from a sump "chamber" upstream of where it is being added, so that new water has to go up to the display, through refugia, and back to the sump before removal.

Regardless, the difference is minor.

The only time the in then out method is a lot better is when one is doing large changes (say, 50-100%), which I would only recommend in an unusual/emergency situation.

Aries360 · Feb 16, 2023

KStatefan said:
I think people are missing the part about your new water sitting in a tote on the driveway.

I think using float valves is a failure waiting to happen.

I would want to be there to control things start the pump removing water and have a valve on the new water and control that manually to maintain sump level.

Yea kinda what I was think. Forget the switches and straight pipe through the attic and just drain/fill same time while I’m there and be done in an hour or so. Then all I need is two sumps about the same size