Baby Steps into Quarantine

[cmoore806]

I wouldn't waste all that time testing four times a day and fretting over this kind of issue. Test it once daily and if the level drops close to the bottom of the range you've identified for treating fish just add some copper and recheck it later in the day.

Your original goal is to treat fish not to see a specific number on a meter. As long as you are in the right range the main goal of treating fish is being met

If your main goal is to see a number on a meter that you like then you should call Hanna Instruments and discuss this with their customer support to see if they can identify an answer.

 

[cmoore806]

Also I just looked back and see you are adding freshwater manually instead of an ATO. Without the ATO just stop all this OCD crap and either buy the ATO or accept that your parameters are going to be frustratingly inconsistency or nonsensical.

 

[Bob Wiley]

I wouldn't waste all that time testing four times a day and fretting over this kind of issue. Test it once daily and if the level drops close to the bottom of the range you've identified for treating fish just add some copper and recheck it later in the day.

Your original goal is to treat fish not to see a specific number on a meter. As long as you are in the right range the main goal of treating fish is being met

If your main goal is to see a number on a meter that you like then you should call Hanna Instruments and discuss this with their customer support to see if they can identify an answer.

Honestly, that's the point I am trying to get to. The only reason I ran all those tests yesterday was because I have seen some oddball numbers during this whole process and want to make sure I'm not dealing with copper absorption. And if so, how fast is it being absorbed?

Because if that's the case, I don't want to be surprised with a daily/semi-daily test on Day 23 that reveals I've fallen out of therapeutic range and will need to start the 30-day clock all over again.

I'm not chasing a number, I just don't want to fall out of therapeutic range unknowingly. If that means finding out if there is absorption then so be it. If there is, at what rate.

Remember, this is my first go at this whole process. While there is a lot of great info around here to set someone out on this path, we still need to travel down it and get a feeling for what this all means. This is me doing that.

Also I just looked back and see you are adding freshwater manually instead of an ATO. Without the ATO just stop all this OCD crap and either buy the ATO or accept that your parameters are going to be frustratingly inconsistency or nonsensical.

Good point, but I think the ATO would have driven me more crazy because with constantly adding copper this past week I would not have been able to treat the ATO water at a level consistent with where I needed to be at any given point in time. I think it would have thrown my numbers off much more. At least with a manual top-off here and there, I know exactly how much I'm adding back into the tank and can treat, or not treat, that amount accordingly. Plus, I am not seeing crazy evaporation anyway. We're talking like less than a half-gallon total over 2+ weeks. Plus, plus, if I get an ATO it's going in my DT

Now that I'm at therapeutic (and hopefully stable) I can confidently treat, say, 1 gallon of top-off water at 2.5ppm and leave it sit on the counter for when I need to top off.

That reminds me, I did a test this morning and my levels were at 2.49ppm. Same as the test from 10 hours prior. I'm hopeful that we are stable there and I can move on from thinking about this and focus on fish watching and what's next on the treatment calendar (I believe it's tank-dosing Metro).

Cheers, and thanks for the advice about fretting too much. Given the levels I just saw, I'm not going to remove anything now and just do one more test later tonight. Hopefully I can move on to testing every other day now.

 

[Bob Wiley]

Now that I'm at therapeutic (and hopefully stable) I can confidently treat, say, 1 gallon of top-off water at 2.5ppm and leave it sit on the counter for when I need to top off.

Actually, I take that back. I should not be treating/medicating any top-off water, right?
Because the copper does not evaporate with the tank water, the copper ppm in the tank water just becomes more concentrated the less water is in there due to evaporation, right? Same as the salinity level. So by adding un-medicated top-off water, you are bringing the copper ppm back up to your preferred level or range just the same as you do with bringing the salinity back to your preferred SG.

But when we are actively taking water from the tank with a water change, we are also taking the copper that is in that water with it. Hence we need to make sure we treat/medicate the new water before it goes back into the tank.

So all in all, I was fine on both of those fronts:
- When doing water changes, I medicated my new water first before adding it into the system
- When I did the few top-offs I did, they were with un-medicated fresh water.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 17 — Forgot to mention yesterday that we saw the fire fish flashing again, however I have not seen it flashing today. It also had a normal bowel movement tonight. So there’s that!

Tests:
8:00am — 2.49ppm
8:00pm — 2.51ppm

I feel good about the copper situation now. I will probably test once a day over the next few days just to make sure we do indeed have stability and then taper off to testing every other day.

Also, tonight, I did the first tank-dose of Metro. 1 scoop of Metroplex per 10 gallons. Dosing is every other day for 2 weeks.

 

[cmoore806]

DAY 17 — Forgot to mention yesterday that we saw the fire fish flashing again, however I have not seen it flashing today. It also had a normal bowel movement tonight. So there’s that!

Tests:
8:00am — 2.49ppm
8:00pm — 2.51ppm

I feel good about the copper situation now. I will probably test once a day over the next few days just to make sure we do indeed have stability and then taper off to testing every other day.

Also, tonight, I did the first tank-dose of Metro. 1 scoop of Metroplex per 10 gallons. Dosing is every other day for 2 weeks.

is the firefish flashing or just being a firefish and darting around sometimes. Also, you're correct, nothing but pure RODI water in the ATO container.

 

[Bob Wiley]

is the firefish flashing or just being a firefish and darting around sometimes. Also, you're correct, nothing but pure RODI water in the ATO container.

Here's an example of what it's doing:
It'll be hovering in a pipe or right above the bottom of the tank, and then turn on it's side and scratch it's head on the bottom of the pipe or tank. Kind of like a dog rubbing its neck in the grass. Only this happens quickly and a few times in succession.

At first I was concerned, then I read this might be a natural behavior for firefish/dartfish? We had a red firefish years ago and I don't recall it ever doing this particular type of maneuver. So my takeaway is —

• I have it in meds anyway (Focus+Metro+Selcon in food; Copper in tank; tank-dose of Metro last night)
• I'm documenting when we see it doing this
• it's still eating like a champ (probably the best eater in the tank)
• no one else in the tank has started flashing

Other notes on the firefish—

• it has been prone to having white, stringy poop but as recently as yesterday it had a normal bowel movement.
• i can't tell if it's gills are red or if that is natural coloring on these purple firefish. i can try to get a good head shot, but the water is pretty cloudy at the moment since we're at peak copper.

LiveAquaria's stock photo of purple firefish shows reddish gills, so i'm thinking that might be all that i'm seeing

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 18 — Quiet day. All fish eating well. Copper good.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 19 (4) — Fourth day in therapeutic copper. Second tank-dose of Metroplex. All fish still eating well. Firefish still flashing.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 20 (5) — Fifth day in therapeutic copper. All fish still eating well. Have noticed over the past few days that the yellow watchman goby is chilling more at the bottom of the tank under the pipes. He still comes out and stuffs a piece of food larger than his head into his mouth and returns to his spot and chomps on it for minutes. I'm not sure if he is getting used to being in the tank or if the higher levels of copper are having an effect on him. I don't notice anything physically different (e.g. no spotting; discoloration; weird swimming; etc) with him, so for now we're just observing to see where we go from here.

QT2 (Inverts) tank has gotten cloudy quickly over the past couple of days. Will do a water change on it to see if it alleviates the situation. Wondering if the pistol shrimp will ever molt so we can add him to the DT.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 21 (6) — The sixth day in therapeutic copper. All fish are still eating at every meal (3x/day). The firefish is still flashing. The goby is still hiding out under the pipes, as he’s done all week now. One of the clowns looks to have some tiny chunks missing from it’s pectoral fins and it’s caudal fin. It might be due to the other clown, however I have seen zero aggression in their nearly three weeks together. I’m wondering, instead, if maybe the barnacle blenny has just gotten him a few times in one of it’s dash-n-grabs for food. Other than that, there has been no aggression amongst any of the 5 fish in this tank. So I’m hoping he just got mistaken for food and his fins will grow back.

Did a 2 gallon water change tonight (~20%). The walls of the tank were getting crusty. So we decided to take everything out, scrape down the walls, do a deep clean and then siphon out all the resulting floaties.

The last copper test of the tank water (yesterday) was 2.42ppm. Since we were doing a 2 gallon water change tonight, I dosed the new water with 2.96ml of copper ((0.59ml x 2gal) x 2.5ppm). I mixed that, let it sit, mixed it again, let it sit, mixed it one more time and tested it — 2.24ppm. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

Over the course of stirring and leaving the bucket alone, I’d say probably 10-15 minutes elapsed. This is not the first time I’ve gotten bunk copper results in the bucket and I’m not sure why. Do I need to let it mix into the water longer? I don’t recall seeing anything on the bottle or around the web about a timeframe for mixing.

Anyway, after pouring the new water into the tank and then testing about 30 minutes later, I got a reading of 2.45ppm. So it’s all good I guess. Who knows anymore...

QT2
We also did about a ~40-50% water change in the invert tank today as well. The water had gotten really cloudy suddenly this week and I’m hoping that swapping out a large volume of water will help to clear it up.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 22 (7) — Seventh day in therapeutic copper. Result of test tonight was at 2.48ppm so I'm happy with the mix after yesterday's water change and that we're stable around 2.5ppm. I will probably switch to testing every other day and when doing water changes.

Fish are still eating well at all feedings. Watchman goby was more active today due to (I think) the deep clean and water change yesterday.

It's also been over two weeks since I started mixing Metro+Focus into their food. I think I read that's as long as you do it, so when I prepare their next batch of food I will just mix in the Selcon and that's it. That might help them like the LRS more.

QT2
Water is still cloudy. Might get a small filter bag and some carbon to throw in there to see if that will help.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 23 (8) — Eighth day in therapeutic copper. Did another 2-day dose of Metro tonight. We are 1 week into that and have 1 week left to go. All fish are still eating at every meal. The goby's new eating routine is to chill out by the pipes until everyone else has eaten and then stuff his face with huge amounts of food. We have seen him poop two days in a row now, which has been normal.

QT2
Water just isn't getting clear. I'm afraid there's an algal bloom going on, so I ordered an air pump to get more oxygen into the water. Haven't ruled out throwing a bag of charcoal into the media basket either.

 

[bolo1904]

What are you using for copper?

 

[Bob Wiley]

What are you using for copper?

Copper Power

 

[bolo1904]

Copper Power

Honestly i think you are spending too much time "chasing numbers" testing multiple times a day. @Humblefish confirmed with the manufacture the minimum therapeutic is 1.5ppm. I tested only once a day when ramping up. Once i had a couple tests consistent above 1.5, i started the therapeutic counter, but continued the slow ramp up to around 2ppm. Although the bottle says to dose to 2.5ppm . I think most people do 2ppm. Its okay to fluctuate as long as you don't dip below 1.5 you will be fine. I kept mine roughly between 1.75 and 2 and tested every 2 or 3 days. if it dipped below 1.75, I added 1 to 1.25ML in my 10gal QT and didn't even bother retesting after adding since i know it is above 1.5ppm. I didnt go as high as 2.5. Kept it on the lower end so its not as stressful on the fish. Nothing wrong with 2.5, just don't stress out too much trying to maintain that number. Or crunching numbers to get the right dosage to reach a certain level. The goal is just to stay at or above therapeutic.

 

[Bob Wiley]

Honestly i think you are spending too much time "chasing numbers" testing multiple times a day.

Nope, not chasing numbers! I've been steady in the 2.4 – 2.5 ppm range for awhile now and haven't dosed the tank in over a week. I try to test every 2 – 3 days now, but that is just to make sure we're good. And we have been!

But to reiterate, the reason why I was testing so much back then was because I wasn't seeing the results that everyone said I should have been seeing. I'm dosing exact mls and measuring with a Hanna HR, so I had no reason to believe my results would vary so widely. Early on, if each of my doses had raised the ppm levels by 0.13, as they should have been, I wouldn't have even thought about testing twice a day. But what led me down that path is the fact that I was seeing increases of just a couple points after 10-12 hours mixing in the tank. At that point, when a dose is off by -0.10ppm from where it should be you have to make sure it was either a bunk test or that you don't have anything in there that is absorbing copper. Otherwise you WILL be testing every single day, and WILL be re-dosing the tank every single day to make up for the loss of copper. That's not peace of mind to me.

@Humblefish confirmed with the manufacture the minimum therapeutic is 1.5ppm.

I'm following @Humblefish's quarantine procedure which now recommends 2.5ppm as therapeutic, and getting there over the course of 6-7 days—

How To - Quarantine

How to Setup a Quarantine Tank (updated 4-6-2023) The following are the essentials: Aquarium (10-30 gallons seems to work for most people. A larger QT lets you house more fish and gives you more wiggle room when it comes to ammonia. A smaller QT is cheaper, easier to maintain and can be...

humble.fish

Furthermore, as of just a few months ago, @HotRocks and @4FordFamily have also seemed to verify marine velvet surviving higher concentrations of copper.

See @HotRocks update at the bottom of his OG post here—

My Current QT Process

UPDATE, 10/9/22: For those looking for quarantine information, our current process is kept updated on the first page of this thread (post any questions at the end of the thread). https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/ Thanks, Jay Hemdal I am frequently...

www.reef2reef.com

UPDATE: We have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it.

...and @4FordFamily confirming that and increasing his range to 2.25 – 2.5ppm

My Current QT Process

Well, after some consideration and lots of reading.....I'm not sure if my clowns had/have internal parasites or it was diet related. There's lots of information and I still don't know what to make of all the information. What I decided to do was place them into display tank and feed unmedicated...

www.reef2reef.com

UPDATE: 04/28/2020 - Possible velvet survived even higher concentrations... continue reading...
My current method:
Copper 2.25-2.5 PPM for 14 days, metroplex concurrently. Testing with Hanna only.

Now, granted he's doing 14 days in copper and then transferring to a sterile tank. I don't have that luxury right now. So I'm 30 days in copper regardless.

I didnt go as high as 2.5. Kept it on the lower end so its not as stressful on the fish. Nothing wrong with 2.5, just don't stress out too much trying to maintain that number. Or crunching numbers to get the right dosage to reach a certain level. The goal is just to stay at or above therapeutic.

This is why I've also been noting how the fish are handling this whole quarantine. I can say without a doubt that we see all 5 of them eat 3 times per day. In fact, the two clowns and the firefish greet us at the top of the tank when we feed. Further, all are active and swimming normal.

Now, that's been our experience so far. We're 10 days into 2.5ppm therapeutic. I hope that this is the status quo from here on out, but I won't be so naive as to think that just because we're good now then we're good for the duration.

Remember, this is my first go at quarantine. I want to make sure I'm on top of it. Add to that, the wife and kid who will be greatly disappointed if we have to reset the 30 day clock at any point. So yeah, I don't mind over-testing if it means I'm learning how this whole process goes and what to expect from future quarantines. And for better or worse, I'm documenting all of this to aid people in the future who may have similar experiences. If someone can benefit from this thread, great! If they want to use me as an example of how far you don't have to go, so be it!

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 24 (9) — Ninth day at therapeutic. Everyone is doing well, eating well and staying active. We've found that the fish really like it when we turn the filter back on after giving them some time to eat because it blows food back up off the bottom into the water column. They like to chase it down. Have not noticed the firefish flashing in a few days.

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 25 (10) — Tenth day at therapeutic. Did a copper test for the first time in a few days and it was at 2.49ppm [insert thumbs up emoji]. Everyone still eating well. All fish are active. Dosed Metro today. Water needs topping off.

QT2 (Inverts)
Air bubbler arrived today. And we're installing it tomorrow. This is what I got—


Hoping that will alleviate the cloudy water. Although it has gotten a little clearer over the past day...

 

[Bob Wiley]

DAY 26 (11) — Eleventh day in therapeutic copper. Everyone still going strong. Firefish was doing its dart/flash thing today. Trying to pay attention to when its doing it, because I think it is during feeding. The thing is, we have noticed this for weeks, have been feeding it metro-soaked food and have been dosing the tank with Metro for over a week. If it does have an infection or flukes or something I would have expected that to be worse by now. Otherwise, if it's something that copper and/or metro can cure then it should be under control by now. We'll see what the Prazipro does when we come out of copper. If it's still flashing after a week in Prazipro then it must mean it has something I'm not prepared to treat or this is just how it darts as a normal function of its being. I do have Rally Reef, although I can't recall off the top of my head if a dip in that helps for flukes or bacterial infections.

QT2 (Inverts)
Installed the air pump/sponge filter today. The water appears to be getting clearer after only a few hours. Should have a better idea by morning.