Back in the hobby! ... and with an upgrade question

[Phycodurus]

Hello everyone.

After 10 years out of the hobby, I have set up my 180G saltwater tank again (yay). I used to frequent the old AquaLink web forum btw for any of you that may remember that forum.

Sitting idle in my living room for years, the tank set-up was almost a spur-of-the-moment thing. It’s up since February and fully cycled [pods galore] and now very lightly stocked with snails, hermits, shrimps and two urchins that I could not resist: Vasco de Gama (blue tuxedo urchin) and Vasco Núñez de Balboa (a Halloween Urchin) aka the “Vasco brothers.” I opted to name them after famous explorers because they constantly move ALL over the tank … it’s almost comical sometimes when I find one at the opposite side of the tank five minutes later.

… but I digress …

Catching up with the technology, I see that LEDs are extremely popular. I’m guessing that LED technology for the aquarium trade has been around since before I left the hobby, but I don’t recall being aware of it. Anywho, I’ve finalized my choice of upgrade to a T5/LED set-up (current set-up is/was 5 Hamilton PC fixtures each holding a pair of Hamilton 55W PC bulbs). At present, I have only installed about 3 bulbs since I know I plan to migrate to a new set-up.

After much reading, more reading, YouTube watching , more YouTube watching and digesting it all, I have a pretty good refresher on lighting and PAR (an aspect that I wasn’t aware of a decade ago, but my set-up back then was only FOWLR). I’m keen now on exploring corals … mostly softies and LPS corals, but what really has captured my attention are tridacna clams … to the point that I verge on embracing a clam-only tank lol. All the YouTube videos I have been watching have been a great primer.

Despite all that knowledge absorption, I’m still a bit unsure about a reasonable T5 bulb-count appropriate for my system/livestock set-up vs. going unnecessarily overboard. I know not to rely on a “watts per gallon” formula; I have also purchased a Seneye PAR meter. But I don’t want to take PAR readings and come to find that I’m way under or way over target levels (and potentially have to re-arrange the light fixtures).

My tank is a 180G acrylic tank: 72”L X 24”W X 24”W with a laminate canopy set-up. The canopy rests directly on the tank, has a hinged lid, and the inside clearance is rather low: about 4 inches high. Canopy is enclosed on three sides (open in the back for ventilation). I further plan to attach about 4 cooling fans evenly spaced across the back.


So I respectfully ask your opinions on the following options:

(a) 4 EA X 60”L 80W T5 bulbs (2 EA X ATI Coral Plus and 2 EA X ATI Blue Plus) with 1 EA X Reef Brite 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT X 72”L

(b) 6 EA X 60”L 80W T5 bulbs (2 EA X ATI Coral Plus and 2 EA X ATI Blue Plus and 2 more 80W bulbs - - either one additional of the prior two or a Purple Plus or True Actinic) with 1 EA X Reef Brite 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT X 72”L

(c) perhaps I am woefully off target and need eight T5 bulbs??


Facing the tank, I plan to fix the LED STRIP either as the first light fixture, or no further back than the middle of the tank. Due to the low clearance, I plan to forego the ATI fixture and directly screw in the T5 reflectors to the canopy. (I will lose the dimmable feature on the T5s sans ATI fixture, but the LED strip will have a dimmable feature). The T5 reflectors would be evenly spaced from front to back.

What I am most curious about is if a second Reef Brite LED strip (more towards the back) is definite overkill?? I really want that LED shimmer in the tank. If two, both LED strips should ramp up no more than about 50%?


• Other questions
• I read that longer T5 bulbs (48 IN, 60 IN) actually give stronger PAR over 24 IN bulbs? (Wish I captured where I read that)
• Is it not advisable to have a dimmable feature on T5s? (i.e. it affects the life of the bulb?)


A big thank you in advance to everyone!



Cheers,
Rick
Los Angeles, CA

 

[GoVols]

Hello, Rick

First Off:
Welcome to Reef 2 Reef , and we hope you feel at home.

MH/T5 is still the gold standard, but that's JMO...

If you wanted great led's with MH shimmer / Two Kessil Ap700's would be perfection.

The T5's will wash out the Reefbrite's shimmer.

What kind of corals do you want to grow, and I'll step back, to let other's help out.

Freddie

 

[reef lover]

Welcome to r2r!!

 

[ndrwater]

Welcome Rick!! You'll like it here..
Now as @GoVols has already suggested, MH/T5 is, also IMO, the gold standard, but...
Being here in Southern California too, MH is just too darn hot compared to other options out there. T5 can and will grow any coral you want like crazy. So will LED. As Vols suggested, a couple of AP700's are a great suggestion. Gonna throw my personal faves in the ring too with Radion XR30's. GREAT lights, great flexibility (even more so with a Reeflink). Do some poking around, and you might find some used for a good deal.
My biggest issue with T5 is the lack of shimmer as well as annual bulb replacement. With LED, you get all the shimmer you could want, crazy coral "pop", as well as a light that doesn't need annual bulb replacement.
To give you an idea, World Wide Corals (definitely one of the best in the biz) uses Radions almost exclusively...

 

[Daniel Waters]

I’ve finalized my choice of upgrade to a T5/LED set-up

mostly softies and LPS corals, but what really has captured my attention are tridacna clams … to the point that I verge on embracing a clam-only tank

Despite all that knowledge absorption, I’m still a bit unsure about a reasonable T5 bulb-count appropriate for my system/livestock set-up vs. going unnecessarily overboard. I know not to rely on a “watts per gallon” formula; I have also purchased a Seneye PAR meter. But I don’t want to take PAR readings and come to find that I’m way under or way over target levels (and potentially have to re-arrange the light fixtures).

My tank is a 180G acrylic tank: 72”L X 24”W X 24”W with a laminate canopy set-up. The canopy rests directly on the tank, has a hinged lid, and the inside clearance is rather low: about 4 inches high. Canopy is enclosed on three sides (open in the back for ventilation). I further plan to attach about 4 cooling fans evenly spaced across the back.

(a) 4 EA X 60”L 80W T5 bulbs (2 EA X ATI Coral Plus and 2 EA X ATI Blue Plus) with 1 EA X Reef Brite 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT X 72”L

(b) 6 EA X 60”L 80W T5 bulbs (2 EA X ATI Coral Plus and 2 EA X ATI Blue Plus and 2 more 80W bulbs - - either one additional of the prior two or a Purple Plus or True Actinic) with 1 EA X Reef Brite 50/50 XHO LED STRIP LIGHT X 72”L

(c) perhaps I am woefully off target and need eight T5 bulbs??

Facing the tank, I plan to fix the LED STRIP either as the first light fixture, or no further back than the middle of the tank. Due to the low clearance, I plan to forego the ATI fixture and directly screw in the T5 reflectors to the canopy. (I will lose the dimmable feature on the T5s sans ATI fixture, but the LED strip will have a dimmable feature). The T5 reflectors would be evenly spaced from front to back.

What I am most curious about is if a second Reef Brite LED strip (more towards the back) is definite overkill?? I really want that LED shimmer in the tank. If two, both LED strips should ramp up no more than about 50%?
• Is it not advisable to have a dimmable feature on T5s? (i.e. it affects the life of the bulb?)

Wow, so much information in that post. Let me try to hit some of your points / questions and make some comments.

If you're doing softies and lps, 4 bulbs of T5 with your 1 LED strip will be fine. However, you mentioned clams. Clams typically can take all the par you give them. If you want to go clams, you're going to need 6 to 8 T5 bulbs. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about being overkill on par with T5's. Corals seem to be very tolerant of high par levels from T5s.

If you're wanting LED bars to add shimmer, the T5s are going to mute the shimmer quite a bit. I'd recommend you look more into the actinic type LED strip lights versus the 50 / 50 and use one or two daylight type t5 bulbs to give you the full spectrum and whiter look you might be after (unless you know you really prefer a white looking tank). The blue LEDs work great for dawn / dusk applications and, of course, can be ran during the day also.

You don't need dimmable T5s. Besides, the 80w (60" bulbs) aren't dimmable anyway.

Since you want shimmer, I'd recommend 6 retro fit T5s. Space them 2 in the front, 2 in the center, and in the back. I'd place 2 actinic type blue LED strip lights, one in between each set of 2 T5 bulbs. The two led bars should give you more shimmer so it's more noticeable and some extra par if needed (if not, you can turn the intensity down).

Another issue I want to bring up is your canopy. You made it sound like the lights will only be 4" above the tank top? I'm assuming you will have a glass top on the aquarium? Open top or a mesh top isn't going to work. You're just asking for water to splash up on the reflectors and bulbs (which would be a big no no). Secondly, heat buildup in the canopy might be an issue. You said you'd have fans blowing air into the canopy, so maybe that will work. 4" just isn't a lot of space and having a glass top might trap additional heat into the aquarium as it is. Just something to think about.

As far as your comments on T5 bulb selection, don't worry about T5 bulb combinations right now. You can't really screw it up with T5 bulbs. Just pick a combination of bulbs you like visually. Use blue plus / actinic as your core and add in whatever amount of full spectrum bulbs you want to get the look you like visually. Full spectrum bulbs would be something like a 6500K, 10k, aquablue special, or even the coral plus and purple plus bulbs although the coral plus and purple plus aren't as intense in the non blue spectrum ranges. A 1:1 ratio of blue to white bulbs will give you a white looking tank. A 2 blue:1 white bulb ratio is a more typical selection but some people who like very deep blue looking tanks might only run one coral plus or purple plus bulb in a 4 or 6 bulb setup.

 

[GoVols]

Wow, so much information in that post. Let me try to hit some of your points / questions and make some comments.

If you're doing softies and lps, 4 bulbs of T5 with your 1 LED strip will be fine. However, you mentioned clams. Clams typically can take all the par you give them. If you want to go clams, you're going to need 6 to 8 T5 bulbs. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about being overkill on par with T5's. Corals seem to be very tolerant of high par levels from T5s.

If you're wanting LED bars to add shimmer, the T5s are going to mute the shimmer quite a bit. I'd recommend you look more into the actinic type LED strip lights versus the 50 / 50 and use one or two daylight type t5 bulbs to give you the full spectrum and whiter look you might be after (unless you know you really prefer a white looking tank). The blue LEDs work great for dawn / dusk applications and, of course, can be ran during the day also.

You don't need dimmable T5s. Besides, the 80w (60" bulbs) aren't dimmable anyway.

Since you want shimmer, I'd recommend 6 retro fit T5s. Space them 2 in the front, 2 in the center, and in the back. I'd place 2 actinic type blue LED strip lights, one in between each set of 2 T5 bulbs. The two led bars should give you more shimmer so it's more noticeable and some extra par if needed (if not, you can turn the intensity down).

Another issue I want to bring up is your canopy. You made it sound like the lights will only be 4" above the tank top? I'm assuming you will have a glass top on the aquarium? Open top or a mesh top isn't going to work. You're just asking for water to splash up on the reflectors and bulbs (which would be a big no no). Secondly, heat buildup in the canopy might be an issue. You said you'd have fans blowing air into the canopy, so maybe that will work. 4" just isn't a lot of space and having a glass top might trap additional heat into the aquarium as it is. Just something to think about.

As far as your comments on T5 bulb selection, don't worry about T5 bulb combinations right now. You can't really screw it up with T5 bulbs. Just pick a combination of bulbs you like visually. Use blue plus / actinic as your core and add in whatever amount of full spectrum bulbs you want to get the look you like visually. Full spectrum bulbs would be something like a 6500K, 10k, aquablue special, or even the coral plus and purple plus bulbs although the coral plus and purple plus aren't as intense in the non blue spectrum ranges. A 1:1 ratio of blue to white bulbs will give you a white looking tank. A 2 blue:1 white bulb ratio is a more typical selection but some people who like very deep blue looking tanks might only run one coral plus or purple plus bulb in a 4 or 6 bulb setup.

Daniel,
That's a great post and thanks for taking the time.

When I was full blown T5, the KZ Genii was the best full daylight bulb that I ever used.

It's has the sweetest color spectrum with no washout like the AB special does, and a par monster.

 

[Daniel Waters]

Daniel,
That's a great post and thanks for taking the time.

When I was full blown T5, the KZ Genii was the best full daylight bulb that I ever used.

It's has the sweetest color spectrum with no washout like the AB special does, and a par monster.

Very good information. I've only used ATI bulbs and typically just reference those in my bulb recommendations to others as it seems most people are more familiar with ATIs line of T5 bulbs. I have contemplated trying some if the KZ bulbs out as I've heard good things a out their bulbs. I mention the aquablue special as a full spectrum bulb but I typically never recommend that bulb as I always hated the way it looked as well. I keep my tank more on the blue side, so I'm only using one coral plus and one purple plus bulb with 4 other blue / actinic bulbs (and i run some LEDs on very blue spectrums). I keep playing with the idea of trying out a more intense daylight bulb. @GoVols is the KZ geni bulb still made or have you tried the KZ Coral light or KZ coral light II new generation bulbs. I've contemplated trying one of those out but I'm afraid it might be too white for my liking.

Apologies to the original poster for the tangent! But as you can tell, T5 bulb selection can become a whole other realm of discussion and can become as involved as you want to let it!

 

[GoVols]

I never tried the Original KZ full daylight bulb, but the Genii does have a sweet spectrum with a hint of blue.

The KZ Super Blues have a nice steel blue metallic look, but it's hard to beat an ATI B+ in my opinion.

Bulk Reef Supply still sells the KZ bulbs

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/aquarium-lighting/t5-fluorescent-aquarium-lighting/bulbs.html

 

[Phycodurus]

Thanks for the welcome, guys. (^_^)v

Freddie: I do fully acknowledge that MH/T5 is a very desirable & optimum set-up. As Daniel points out, here in SoCal, it’s already so hot here in the summer, and a MH set-up would generate more heat that I think I (or my tank) can cope with. (I’m in Whittier btw, Daniel).

My main issue is that I’d really really prefer to keep the present canopy. I don’t like the look of hanging lights. Lights like the Kessil AP700 and Radion XR30 can’t be mounted under the canopy (I’d be blocking the ventilation fan), but I agree that they are both certainly great lights.

I do realize that T5s will wash out the LED shimmer (part of the reason why I’m tempted to get two LED strips instead of one). I’m not expecting to get full-on shimmer, but a nuance of it would be nice. On the other hand, I opted not to go strictly LED because of the shadow issues commonly associated with solely using point-source lighting.

Daniel: thanks also for confirming my hunch that T5s don’t really need to be dimmable, and also recommending add’l T5 bulbs. Good point to emphasize PAR from T5s versus PAR from LEDs. I will check into your recommendation for actinic-type LED strip lights instead of the 50/50.

I am indeed after a more full spectrum “natural” look (not too white), and yes I’m very fluid for now on selecting what bulb spectrums & combinations to eventually use. I’m counting on the LEDs for that dawn/dusk effect.

Another thank you for the recommendation on the T5 bulb arrangement: 2 in the front, 2 in the center, and 2 in the back with 2 actinic blue LED strips in between each pair of T5 bulbs.

You are correct when you mention that the lights are only about 4” above the tank top. It is not an open top tank. I think the mfg. of my acrylic tank is Advanced Aqua (still have the little “Clear for Life” sticker on the acrylic lid). I went with acrylic over glass because of the better strength for larger tanks with regard to earthquake concerns. (Brrrrr … )

I don’t know if the industry still manufactures them like my tank, but the top panel is essentially a full acrylic sheet with two medium-sized openings. It makes for a very wide “lip” all around the edge and a “bridge” down the center. Thin sheets of acrylic serve as lids for each opening. I wipe them regularly to allow for maximum light penetration, and there is definitely no splash up. I also regularly wipe down the bulbs + the reflectors. You are right about the heat build-up … those PC bulbs get hot and I realize T5s aren’t cooler by that much.


Gentlemen, I tip my hat to you! Thank you for your replies! I will check on the actinic-type LED strip lights!

 

[Daniel Waters]

I do realize that T5s will wash out the LED shimmer (part of the reason why I’m tempted to get two LED strips instead of one). I’m not expecting to get full-on shimmer, but a nuance of it would be nice. On the other hand, I opted not to go strictly LED because of the shadow issues commonly associated with solely using point-source lighting.

I am indeed after a more full spectrum “natural” look (not too white), and yes I’m very fluid for now on selecting what bulb spectrums & combinations to eventually use. I’m counting on the LEDs for that dawn/dusk effect.

I'm a T5 kind of guy, but I think LED strips / bars will serve you very well for your canopy and your situation. Shadowing won't be an issue if you're using LED bars like you would get with puck style LED units. Plus, even having just 4 t5 bulbs will eliminate any shading.

Given the additional information you shared, here are some additional thoughts. I definitely think the blue / actinic LED bars should be your go to. Skip the one 50 / 50 and go with two blue / actinic bars. This will give you some shimmer, and they will work great for dawn / dusk. You could also consider doing only 4 T5 bulbs and add a third LED bar, and make that bar a 50 / 50 type combo. So, you'd have a set of T5 bulbs, blue / actinic LED bar, 50 / 50 LED bar, blue / actinic LED bar, and then the last 2 bulbs of T5**. The reason I like this last option is it will give you more shimmer (but won't be too much with the t5s on), it will make heat less of a concern in your canopy, and you can use the 50 / 50 LED bar to better tweak the overall color in your tank (you'll have less ability to do that with the T5s and blue / actinic LEDs alone so one LED with some white diodes will help).

**You could also put the actinic / blue LED bars in front and behind the T5s depending on where you want the T5s positioned. Also, I think the 60" LED bars will be fine to light the 72" tank length. I don't think you need a 72" one.

 

[Phycodurus]

Hi again, everyone.

I have finally gotten around to ordering my upgrade, and I'm going with the 2 Reef Brite LED strips recommended (thank you, Daniel).

To revisit & clarify a prior point ... is there a noticeable difference in obtainable shimmer between the two options below? (I realize the shimmer will be muted by the T5 bulbs, and I'm also aware that white tends to overpower blue).

- (1) 50/50 and (1) Blue Actinic
- (2) Blue Actinics


Balancing all this, which one of the two options can be said to be better for clams? I'm predisposed to think that at least one LED bar should be 50/50 since clams come from quite shallow water. I won't mind a whiter tank knowing that the clams benefit more (yes, at the expense of a lighter stock of LPS/SPS corals).

I respectfully ask your thoughts again, thank you.

 

[jda]

If lots of clams are your main goal, then I would not get anything short of 250w Halides for each 2x2 area. You can get some bulbs that do not get too hot (20k Radium or the new 20k Hamilton), but you can get some heat being in Cali. You can kinda mitigate this by keeping just the less-light-demanding species like Crocea and Squamosa, but most people eventually want Maxima, Crocea and Noae.

 

[vetteguy53081]

MH is indeed on a comeback but for spectrum, shimmer, low operating cost and great customer support.... I recommend Kessil. I had A360 units with No Regret and now utilize the AP700 which are fantastic and supplemented with Two 72" Reefbrite blues and SB Reef Wifi units.
No Regrets !! This has great actinic effect with shimmer

 

[Daniel Waters]

To revisit & clarify a prior point ... is there a noticeable difference in obtainable shimmer between the two options below? (I realize the shimmer will be muted by the T5 bulbs, and I'm also aware that white tends to overpower blue).

- (1) 50/50 and (1) Blue Actinic
- (2) Blue Actinics

If it were me, I'd go with the two blue actinics and use my T5 bulbs for my full spectrum needs, which I think they do a better job of. Also, I think LEDs do a really nice job with the deep blue color they can produce nowadays. As far as T5 bulbs, you will have to find a combination of bulbs that gives you the preferred blended color you like (just about any combination you pick will be fine as far as spectrum). There's probably 100+ posts from people asking what T5 bulb combination they should run. Given you said you like "whiter" tanks, I'd start with 1:1 ratio of blue plus bulb to 1 daylight type bulb. Daylight bulb being something like a coral plus bulb, aquablue special, 10k bulb, or even a 6500K bulb. The coral plus is the least white looking in this group and the 6500k would be the most white looking. Thus, you might have to try several bulbs and try combinations out to see what you prefer the best.

I can't comment about clams. I'd suspect if your par levels are adequate, the T5s will provide the needed spectrum. If you don't have enough par, then I'd add in a third LED strip at that time or another 2 bulbs of T5s. I suspect your 4 T5 bulbs and 2 LED strips should give you adequate par given your canopy is only a few inches above the top of your water line.

Hope that helps and good luck!

 

[Dana Riddle]

Since you've made your lighting decision and have a PAR meter, give the clams as much light as possible. See here for a chart demonstrating light requirements of a T. maxima (and other photosynthetic animals):
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1