Bacteria in a bottle?

[brandon429]

I agree these cheats are just cheats and ideally we should reef naturally. its fun to tinker with wrecked or challenge tanks though until we all find a consistent way to avoid the cheats

 

[Keepswiming]

Debating how "safe" peroxide is in the tank could go on for some time. The first mistake I see people do though, is using the brown bottle peroxide, which has stabilizers, many of which are toxic. (period)

All I was merely stating is that it's impossible to say "nitrifying bacteria are not affected".

I myself have used it in my tank, but I sure prefer to use it outside of the tank. Good talk though!

That was my problem !!!!! I used the brown bottle and it looked like it burnt my pintale and it died! Which are you suppose to use?!? I hate online info because there is so much room for error/opinion. lol

 

[brandon429]

all of our studies involve the brown bottle so there are at least a lot of data points to reference using the lesser stuff


Agreed it has stabilizers like tannic acid and some phosphate




the only place to get significance validation regarding peroxide outcomes is from giant peroxide threads where a bunch of random pics and statements begin to show patterns. The claim that it doesn't harm bacteria come solely off the volume of posts from dosers and their ammonia/nitrate testing



no formal articles exist to cover its use in the reef tank. even oceanic studies we can search out do not apply to the workings within a reef tank, too many paradoxes the stuff is amazing when needed

 

[Keepswiming]

all of our studies involve the brown bottle

recap: that's seven years, about a thou pages heh.

yes it has stabilizers like tannic acid, but they just aren't impactful

any losses you had simply weren't due to the stabilizers.

they aren't that impactful, or USPS wouldn't certify that peroxide to be put on your wounds

for fifty years in hospital settings, those brown bottles were dumped on countless patients wounds lol

*accuracy caveat

recent medical trends dislike peroxide in wounds due to the way bubbling physically breaks down clotting factors and slows down bleed stopping
it doesn't hurt to still use it, or put it on a kids skinned knee, they just like other ways now

a recurring theme here is significance of claims

the only place to get significance validation regarding peroxide is from giant peroxide threads, as no formal articles exist to cover its use in the reef tank. even oceanic studies we can search out do not apply to the workings within a reef tank, for this molecule.

That's good hear I didn't directly kill the pintale with the peroxide.

 

[Keepswiming]

I read most of that thread but didn't notice the bottle issue being addressed.

 

[brandon429]

If I had a choice of food grade vs brown bottle def pick food grade, why add stabilizers if can be avoided agree with KPS

But if no options just use brown bottle we've measured no distinction in the tank from the two

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I read most of that thread but didn't notice the bottle issue being addressed.

What question, specifically, are you looking for an answer to?

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ahh yes, here's more info if anyone is curious...




Drug store/grocery store grade hydrogen peroxide, available in a 3 percent solution is always stabilized to increase shelf life of the product. For this reason it is not an appropriate solution for use in food preparation or the cleaning of food preparation surfaces or equipment.


It is, however, perfectly safe to use in such applications as laundry, general cleaning or applications in which it does not come into prolonged direct contact with plants, animals or humans.




http://h2o2uses.com/hydrogen-peroxide-grades-and-stabilizers

Another tidbit on how it works against bacteria.. (basically it's an oxidizer)

The destructive oxygen in hydrogen peroxide is known as a free radical. The peroxide group, which is composed of two oxygen ions, reacts with bacterial cell walls and other cells' structures. Each oxygen atom has an unpaired electron, which is highly unstable and makes it extremely reactive.

While hydrogen peroxide is a common disinfectant due to its bacteria-killing properties, it is dangerous to human cells as well as bacteria. It damages the surrounding tissue if it is left on a wound for too long. At higher concentrations, it is corrosive. The body has some defenses against this activity, however, which produces the foaming often noted after hydrogen peroxide application.

The human body has certain enzymes that help break down peroxides before they do too much damage, because such free radicals are formed naturally during aerobic respiration. The focus on dietary antioxidants in recent years arises from metabolic free radicals damaging human cells in the same way that manufactured peroxide does.





http://www.ask.com/science/hydrogen-peroxide-kill-bacteria-997be5fdd6eae1ba

Otherwise get food grade and dilute it. That's another reason when you find threads about peroxide dosing, everyone's cleaner shrimp dies, or other shrimps..(I think those are the most common deaths; far from zero though)

 

[Keepswiming]

What question, specifically, are you looking for an answer to?

I was just talking about the contradicting statements about the brown bottle. I lost a pintale after dosing the brown bottle, not saying the bottle was the cause though.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Ha, I've not looked too in-depth into it.. Makes me wonder.

without H2O2 added to the CFCM system, the corals did not suffer significant stress from the experimental system over a 12-day incubation period. When H2O2 was added, large decreases in photosynthesis and calcification were observed.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098108005893?np=y




They found that by noon on hot August days, hydrogen peroxide concentrations in the seawater surged to nearly three times what they had been at dawn. Lab testing confirmed that under the glare of UV rays, particles of two common ingredients of sunscreen—titanium dioxide and zinc oxide—convert into hydrogen peroxide in similar volumes.

Here’s the problem: at those levels, hydrogen peroxide is so toxic to phytoplankton that it caused their numbers to crash by around 80%.
http://qz.com/253162/chemicals-from-sunscreen-are-poisoning-the-ocean/

Even AA did something it looks like, though this is just talking about coral utilizing h202
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/sps-release-hydrogen-peroxide-when-feeding

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was just talking about the contradicting statements about the brown bottle. I lost a pintale after dosing the brown bottle, not saying the bottle was the cause though.

OK, I thought it was a question relating to the bottle mentioned in the thread title.

Unfortunately, it is typically not possible to know what stabilizers are used in many hydrogen peroxide formulations, and they range from no big concern in a reef to potential substantial concern, so it is hard to pin down the specific risks of any stabilized formulation.

 

[brandon429]

Kungpao

why is it the actual reef tank study threads show no change in bacterial metabolite levels, which is directly against your implication

all your data above is for non reef surfaces, that leaves out organic sinking actions, floc insulations, dilution many more that change the dynamic. what if its zero impact to bacteria?

simply not addressing counter proof is one way to make a point


fun jab for fun

these are all good counterclaims, but contexting against a wall of alt evidence is reqd


to me its the same as saying that since people have died from drinking too much water, ergo drinking water is dangerous and here are five studies of hyponatremics

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Oh no, I'm not arguing, but what's the phrase?
Causation does not imply correlation?

I think it's a pretty self-explanatory thing. Since we don't know for certain which chemicals are in which brown bottles, to say it doesn't affect the nitrifying bacteria is folly, because it's more than a 50% chance that it does affect them.

I thought though posts were good reading, but it does support either argument to the extent we can pinpoint evidence. Though if 'fun jab' is part of the discussion, it's no longer educational..

The simple fact remains, 1. it's an oxidizer and 2. adding the amounts people do, is not natural. And finally, people add it to their tanks to kill stuff. I'm sorry, but your argument is weaker than an 80 year olds knees.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

why is it the actual reef tank study threads show no change in bacterial metabolite levels, which is directly against your implication

And where did you see this?

 

[brandon429]

its where you aren't seeing it




the threads you are discounting in place of formal studies that are not occurring in a reef tank.

a 40 page peroxide thread running years is stickied at R2R, how many had ammonia readings or nitrate readings signifying annamox bac loss?

these trades are constant in the peroxide discussion, im ok w a little exchange its no harm I think its fun challenges, we don't want to be working with snake oil

Im literally saying that people with no giant threads to test any claim like to make the most sure statements about the effect of peroxide in a reef tank. its easy to find materials that have nothing to do with reef tank peroxide dynamics, since the threads are the going documentations for whats really going on.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Isn't there another saying about anecdotal evidence? hehe

Oh, and even snake oil has legitimate purposes..

But really, if peroxide doesn't do anything to nitrifying bacteria, what's the purposes of a dose amount?

 

[brandon429]

its not anecdotal to measure no change in ammonia, nitrate or nitrite in thousands of peroxide tanks, its a generous offer to a void of existing information, but I could be biased heh

even gross overdose threads, no ammonia.

ur data is lacking relevance to reef tanks but not to non reeftank bacteria.

why not make some counter claim threads and test em KP, ill accept even anecdotal evidence to the opposite if you can get out 5 pages of results in favor of measurable impact to marine aquarium bacteria.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Lol.. You are definitely biased.

I'm all about using peroxide, but I fully believe more than what we see, is dying.

I would go through the thread, but I don't care that much lol... It's true bacteria can have a resistance to being oxidized, but your argument of "omg your sources of info talk about the ocean! this isn't the ocean!" is a completely biased statement out of HOPE.

Good luck sir! PM me if you want to talk about it more. I feel like we're jacking the thread now.

 

[brandon429]

they like this as webtainment

and I like to have discerning science types combing the web for counter claim info it saves me the work. we want that scrutiny for our methods

I want to be sold more than anyone reading on any aspect of measurable impact to marine bacteria *in situ* not in on a test slide. results need to be nitrifier and denitrifier specific too...no studies on anaerobes like vibrio allowed or studies on general aerobes. we already expect it to offset bacterial gains from carbon dosing, not the point. our claim is that the normal reef tank setting isn't suffering when people experiment w peroxide

see twiliards thread too

there will be giant threads to update when we are shown harm to marine bacteria in a measurable way:

http://reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/268706-peroxide-saves-my-tank-with-pics-to-prove-it/page-64

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2082359

http://reef2reef.com/threads/back-at-it-peroxide-vrs-cyanobacteria.241002/

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Lol...

All I have to say?

Good hypothesis. (but that's all it is)