Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[lakai]

I think it means your ammonia at the highest was .074ppm. And in your chart the highest was 0.034 ppm. Not 3. Did you dose the dr Tim’s to a certain level?

Like I said. It's weird. I've dosed fritz ammonia weighed out 0.9gm on other tanks which is supposed to be 4ppm per 20gallons and the seneye read 0.04-0.038 nh3. Dosing dr tims ammonia 2ppm@ 4 drops per gallon the seneye reads 0.02.

 

[MnFish1]

Like I said. It's weird. I've dosed fritz ammonia weighed out 0.9gm on other tanks which is supposed to be 4ppm per 20gallons and the seneye read 0.04-0.038 nh3. Dosing dr tims ammonia 2ppm@ 4 drops per gallon the seneye reads 0.02.

Interesting. My guess is that the 2ppm for dr Tim assumes you measuring nh3 and nh4. The seneye only measures nh3

 

[MnFish1]

Like I said. It's weird. I've dosed fritz ammonia weighed out 0.9gm on other tanks which is supposed to be 4ppm per 20gallons and the seneye read 0.04-0.038 nh3. Dosing dr tims ammonia 2ppm@ 4 drops per gallon the seneye reads 0.02.

Btw what is your ph temp and salinity. The 2ppm is total ammonia not nh3. That’s the reason for the difference. Here is a nice calculator: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

 

[lakai]

Interesting. My guess is that the 2ppm for dr Tim assumes you measuring nh3 and nh4. The seneye only measures nh3

Good catch. That makes a heck of a lot more sense for the numbers than.

 

[lakai]

Interesting. My guess is that the 2ppm for dr Tim assumes you measuring nh3 and nh4. The seneye only measures nh3

Seneye does indicate NH4 levels as well but I believe it is just calculated based off other parameters.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

Long over due but i am finally done with my mythbusting on the main thread i started last year. I am in touch with Seneye in Europe trying to work out the details of the test and how to use the equipment efficiently and under same account so i can monitor all 5 tanks at same time.

I need input on the following:
Now due to the lack of testing monitors (limited to 5) i have to decide and test 4 products at a time 1 control.
or i can do 5 products and 1 control but control will be tested by a kit and not my Seneye monitor.

Either way I like to test the following products on the first run
TurboStart 900
Dr Tim
Microbelift
Prodibio

Except for TurboStart 900 rest 3 stalled in sterile tank till organic carbon source was introduced, then we saw a rapid decline in ammonia.
On the second run i like to test

Atm colony
Fluval cycle
Bio Spira
Seachem Seed

 

[MnFish1]

Long over due but i am finally done with my mythbusting on the main thread i started last year. I am in touch with Seneye in Europe trying to work out the details of the test and how to use the equipment efficiently and under same account so i can monitor all 5 tanks at same time.

I need input on the following:
Now due to the lack of testing monitors (limited to 5) i have to decide and test 4 products at a time 1 control.
or i can do 5 products and 1 control but control will be tested by a kit and not my Seneye monitor.

Either way I like to test the following products on the first run
TurboStart 900
Dr Tim
Microbelift
Prodibio

Except for TurboStart 900 rest 3 stalled in sterile tank till organic carbon source was introduced, then we saw a rapid decline in ammonia.
On the second run i like to test

Atm colony
Fluval cycle
Bio Spira
Seachem Seed

I would do 4 products and 1 control because you well see minute changes with the monitors - and not with the control (if you use a test kit). Are you going to add ammonia - or fish (as some of the manufacturers have suggested - or add a carbon source?

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I would like to test 4 tanks plus 1 control with Seneye monitors.
Sterile tanks with 4 products and dosing ammonium chloride upto 0.2 NH3 levels over 24 hrs daily while dosing bacteria on 2nd day.

If some products stall and do not show any minute reduction in ammonia after 5 days I'll introduce food and see if that helps.

Or I can add bacteria and according to some manufacturers add fish either right away or next day etc. I can buy few chromis fish and test their respective recommendations.
How does that sound?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Long over due but i am finally done with my mythbusting on the main thread i started last year. I am in touch with Seneye in Europe trying to work out the details of the test and how to use the equipment efficiently and under same account so i can monitor all 5 tanks at same time.

I need input on the following:
Now due to the lack of testing monitors (limited to 5) i have to decide and test 4 products at a time 1 control.
or i can do 5 products and 1 control but control will be tested by a kit and not my Seneye monitor.

Either way I like to test the following products on the first run
TurboStart 900
Dr Tim
Microbelift
Prodibio

Except for TurboStart 900 rest 3 stalled in sterile tank till organic carbon source was introduced, then we saw a rapid decline in ammonia.
On the second run i like to test

Atm colony
Fluval cycle
Bio Spira
Seachem Seed

4 products + 1 control by the same monitor
When only adding organic carbon to the sterile tank with ammonia, what happens?
What about nitrite? To know where the ammonia goes to.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

Most all the products I tested drop ammonia and nitrite to 0. Seneye does not test for nitrite so a test kit will be used to test.

Some products do not work and stall in sterile tank with only media and ammonia in it. Which suggests to me that such products are Heterotrophic bacteria and not true nitrifier bacteria.
Heterotrophic bacteria need carbon source to produce and multiply.
So when products stall I add food in tank just to test that theory.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I would like to test 4 tanks plus 1 control with Seneye monitors.
Sterile tanks with 4 products and dosing ammonium chloride upto 0.2 NH3 levels over 24 hrs daily while dosing bacteria on 2nd day.

If some products stall and do not show any minute reduction in ammonia after 5 days I'll introduce food and see if that helps.

Or I can add bacteria and according to some manufacturers add fish either right away or next day etc. I can buy few chromis fish and test their respective recommendations.
How does that sound?

If , as an example, a sample contains only dead bacteria the sterile tank will not be sterile any more as it will fast be colonised by bacteria reminerelizing the dead biomass .
r-strategists need other building materials wich they may find in the decaying biomass added . How one may proof the ammonia reduction is induced by adding the sample? R-strategists are any where. When your sterile tank is a plastic container it will stay sterile for a few moments. For this you need a sterile room and even then.

You want to know what the different products contain? Send them unopened ( remove the labels and ad your personal code as otherwise they may refuse the sample) to a food healt lab ( governemental?) for a compleet screening of the bacterial content and decomposition of the other content. In the lab they may make cultures in a sterile envirement. I think it will cost not more as what was payed for the products.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If a product contains live bacteria and organic carbon it can not contain all other building materials. Adding such a product to a sterile
tank containing only ammonia can not become in the log phase as there are no building materials available for fast growth, only carbon and nitrogen . If ammonia goes down after a day is it consumed by bacteria in the sample? I do not think so! How one may know after 5 days?
If the ( sterile) tank contains normal seewater but no bacteria all building materials are limited availanle exempt phosphate.

 

[RamsReef]

Your crazyness is my gain.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

There is no way to know what is consuming ammonia within a day or few. That would be a professional lab grade study which by the way has been done by Fritz and Seachem and Prodibio and few more companies and they all seem to put their products as True nitrifier bacteria.
My point of study is not to prove what bacteria is culturing in our tanks but yet simply to see if adding such products speed up traditional cycling of tank that generally takes weeks to months, can be cycled in few days or instantly as some of these bottles claim.
I already think due to my other studies I conducted that most of these products are Heterotrophic bacteria in nature as in sterile tanks they stall without carbon source present.
Maybe one day I'll gather few of these products and send them to a lab and see exactly what types of bacteria and other materials are in them.

 

[Brew12]

I know I've been silent on here lately @Dr. Reef but I can't begin to express my gratitude for all of the time and effort you have put into this testing. You are doing the reefing community and tremendous service.

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

I am looking into a lab to test few of these products and tell me species of bacteria and if they are true nitrifier vs Heterotrophic.
I have papers proving that but many will say they are bias as testing was done by one of the manufacturers. So I will have a independent lab test some bottles.

 

[Brew12]

I am looking into a lab to test few of these products and tell me species of bacteria and if they are true nitrifier vs Heterotrophic.
I have papers proving that but many will say they are bias as testing was done by one of the manufacturers. So I will have a independent lab test some bottles.

Do you feel it matters? As long as the product can process ammonia in a timely manner to protect fish in a new tank does the exact strain of bacteria have any long term impact?

 

[Dr. Reef Verified Sponsor]

To me it doesnt matter as long as products reduce ammonia and let fish live in safety.
From my testing I can pretty much assume some of these that dont work in sterile environments but do work with food in tank make me assume such are Heterotrophic bacteria.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

There is no way to know what is consuming ammonia within a day or few. That would be a professional lab grade study which by the way has been done by Fritz and Seachem and Prodibio and few more companies and they all seem to put their products as True nitrifier bacteria.
My point of study is not to prove what bacteria is culturing in our tanks but yet simply to see if adding such products speed up traditional cycling of tank that generally takes weeks to months, can be cycled in few days or instantly as some of these bottles claim.
I already think due to my other studies I conducted that most of these products are Heterotrophic bacteria in nature as in sterile tanks they stall without carbon source present.
Maybe one day I'll gather few of these products and send them to a lab and see exactly what types of bacteria and other materials are in them.

Did you compare with a placebo,? It may be the heterotrops present in the envirement wich start to grow when adding organic carbon.
How one may know the bacteria in the product speeds up the proces as adding some carbon may also accellerate bacterial growth or it just may contain a modified F2media feeding all bacteria already present as your sample will not really be sterile .
For nitrification it can be measured but the Seneye only measures NH3 consumption.
One should be able to measure daily the nitrite and nitrate evolution over a period of at least two weeks. The normal sequence of autotrophic ammonium reduction is well documented and it should be easy to compare.

Succes!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Why adding expensive products of which one does not know what they contain when nature will remove as much ammonia as needed for free!?