Bacterial Driven System: A Recipe for Success.

[Forty-Two]

I've found that carbon dosing to works great with nitrate reduction, but does not really reduce phosphate levels. I have to use both GFO and a refugium to keep this in check.

I've used bacto balance before and I was personally disappointed with it as it did not work as effectively for me as Red Sea Nopox. It seemed to be sugar based rather than the ethanol based nopox.

I've stopped my carbon dosing due to imbalances in my system and gone back to basics with just regular water changes, no carbon dosing or trace elements.

If you want to eliminate Phosphate you would need Elimini NP - which is what I currently use to reduce PO4. Bacto Balance is only when you have less than .1 PO4 in the system

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I've found that carbon dosing to works great with nitrate reduction, but does not really reduce phosphate levels. I have to use both GFO and a refugium to keep this in check.

I've used bacto balance before and I was personally disappointed with it as it did not work as effectively for me as Red Sea Nopox. It seemed to be sugar based rather than the ethanol based nopox.

I've stopped my carbon dosing due to imbalances in my system and gone back to basics with just regular water changes, no carbon dosing or trace elements.

That’s the normal expectation, IMO. Not only do growing organisms use far less P than N, but denitrification as a processes (driven by organic carbon dosing) consumes nitrate and no phosphate.

 

[NEFFx]

I wonder if there is an organic load, like number/mass of fish, that would make or break carbon dosing because of the increased nitrate production.

It seemed hit or miss but better on higher population tanks from what I’ve heard.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That’s the normal expectation, IMO. Not only do growing organisms use far less P than N, but denitrification as a processes (driven by organic carbon dosing) consumes nitrate and no phosphate.

Are you referring to denitrification by autotrophic bacteria or heterotrophic bacteria? I would presume that the bacteria in dr. Tim’s one and only and mb7 for example to be completely different. One will be autotrophic and the other heterotrophic.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Are you referring to denitrification by autotrophic bacteria or heterotrophic bacteria? I would presume that the bacteria in dr. Tim’s one and only and mb7 for example to be completely different. One will be autotrophic and the other heterotrophic.

@Randy Holmes-Farley is this the reason we can’t get to a agreement on previous threads, it seems from a few posts that you believe that carbon dosing is feeding denitrifying autotrophic bacteria, I’m I being penalised because you only looking at the chemistry side of denitrification and ruling out the biology in heterotrophic bacteria?
the biology here is that they consume C N P and as they die the C N P is stored as marine detritus.

 

[graziano]

Sì, potrai iniziare a utilizzare il bilanciamento NP Bacto. Assicurati di non utilizzare altre fonti di carbonio contemporaneamente. Buona fortuna.

Hello, first dose today 1ml to reach 2.5ml in 250 net liters of aquarium, in your opinion is it okay? : thinking face:

 

[SunnyX]

Hello, first dose today 1ml to reach 2.5ml in 250 net liters of aquarium, in your opinion is it okay? : thinking face:

Hello,

Keep the dosage low for the time being. I would not go over 1ML for at least a couple weeks. Every two weeks, based on your tests, increase or decrease by 0.50ML.

I dose 2ML on about 180gl total system.

 

[SunnyX]

I just ordered bacteria and np bacto balance.

I'm dosing phyto daily, and have been for 4 months to help my pod population for my mandarin. Do you think I should keep this up? or is it better to quit or potentially unnecessary when using this method

Thanks

@SunnyX

Hello,

The carbon source may starve out the Phyto, or may not depending on your nutrient load and the amount of phyto dosed. I personally do not dose Phyto. If I could grow it on my own I likely would dose some daily but the costs are a bit prohibitive. Perhaps others with experience with Phyto can chime in concerning its mechanisms.

 

[graziano]

Ciao,

Mantieni il dosaggio basso per il momento. Non andrei oltre 1 ml per almeno un paio di settimane. Ogni due settimane, in base ai test, aumenta o diminuisce di 0,50 ml.

Doso 2ML su circa 180gl di sistema totale.

Excuse the inconvenience that the Kalkwasser can I continue to dose?

 

[Perry]

Sonny,
I believe with the current "trend " regarding kalkwasser, it may be prudent to discuss C-source/bacteria dosing, along side of kalkwasser. From my understanding, kalkwasser binds P04, in a C-source system, P04 is binded by bacteria, ultimately used as a food source to corals. In the AF system, it is ill advised to use kalkwasser when using their Probiotic Method. I personally do not use kalkwasser, nor do I chase ph, I maintain NSW values, and let the ph rest wherever it settles. In fact, until a couple of years ago, never really considered ph...hmmm

 

[SunnyX]

Excuse the inconvenience that the Kalkwasser can I continue to dose?

Yes, kalkwasser is fine. I dose kalkwasser as well.

 

[Reefahholic]

@SunnyX you continue to bring excellent information and I hope this is never lost.

Great write up! Thanks for sharing your secrets.

 

[zafink]

thanks!

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Well, as the research I've read has put the blame of reef degradation to excess labile DOC aka Carbon Dosing, I certainly question the wisdom of adding any labile DOC to a system. Excess labile DOC can have acute effects on corals like the necrosis you mentioned but unfortunately it can also have chronic effects that may take years to eventually cause issues. And I gotta point out to have the correct Redfield ratio you need to be including particulate and organic forms of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. Just measuring inorganic forms of these three will certainly give a wrong ratio. And how old is the system you posted pictures of in your OP?

You do have spectacular looking corals, unfortunately we can't use colorful corals as an indicator of healthy corals. Neither can we use growth. So how are you determining your corals are healthy?

We know cryptic sponges are processing labile DOC 1000X times faster than the bacterioplankton in the water. How are you determining what's being processed by sponges and what's being processed by bacteria? Sponges also process the various forms of labile DOC differently and some can form feedback loops with algae detrimental to corals. How are you confirming the resultant compounds the sponges in your system are benefitting corals and are not detrimantal to them?


For an excellent introduction to the conflicting roles of DOC in reef ssytems I highly recommend Forest ROhwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

SOme additional videos by researchers looking at microbes and sponges:

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


For the issues of color being indicators of stress see post #59 in this thread:

QUESTION OF THE DAY - Do colorful corals mean you have stressed corals?

I don' think so. If they were so stressed out they wouldn't grow well so I think that when we have good color and good growth, they are probably thriving. I think our lights don't actually mimic sunlight and that we now provide the right spectrum to support colorful corals, but not full...

www.reef2reef.com

I am with sunny in that I have had amazing experiences using carbon sources. I was dosing a large amount of vodka and vinegar daily and my sponge population was absolutely huge. In fact the amount of life in the tank in general exploded once I had the right dose and was feeding the right amounts. I believe our tanks will remove anything potentially harmful that a carbon source could leave behind over time. Assuming the tank has “live rock” quality life in it and is not a bare dry rock tank that was selective on what life was introduced.
I had great results adding nitrate to control my po4 while carbon dosing as well. Huge benefit for reefers who have large amounts of fish and feed heavy.
To your point of how are we knowing if corals are healthy. As an acropora keeper I am pretty sure we have came to the conclusion that having healthy consistent and even or natural looking growth formation along side nice natural coloration means our corals are healthy. Considering most of the corals that have spawned in captivity tend to always have these traits.

 

[ceaver]

The final step in the process is for the skimmer to export the remaining bacteria. This final step is key. I would not recommend carbon dosing without a skimmer. Multiplying bacteria will reduce oxygen levels in an aquarium and a skimmer is a good way to offset this reduction. Secondly, the excess bacteria much be removed from the system, lest it be allowed to complete its lifecycle a, releasing stored nutrients back into the system.

Thanks for the great write up!
Okay, serious question here. I have a smallish tank (IM Nuvo 40) with lots of live rock and SPS, tons of flow and surface agitation, normal nutrient levels, and no skimmer.

I am interested in dabbling with carbon dosing simply to enhance bacterial food sources for my coral, while making sure nutrients don't bottom out. Do you think it's possible to dose some amount of carbon source at a significantly lower amount than normal, such that I am increasing bacteria for food, not majorly depleting oxygen too much, and not having a huge excess of bacteria that need to be skimmed out?

Thanks for your insight!

 

[Arthur_Dent]

Thanks for the great write up!
Okay, serious question here. I have a smallish tank (IM Nuvo 40) with lots of live rock and SPS, tons of flow and surface agitation, normal nutrient levels, and no skimmer.

I am interested in dabbling with carbon dosing simply to enhance bacterial food sources for my coral, while making sure nutrients don't bottom out. Do you think it's possible to dose some amount of carbon source at a significantly lower amount than normal, such that I am increasing bacteria for food, not majorly depleting oxygen too much, and not having a huge excess of bacteria that need to be skimmed out?

Thanks for your insight!

I would not dose c without a skimmer, personally. That said, I've never tried it.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You could probably do it safely without a skimmer as long as you ran an airstone...

 

[SunnyX]

Thanks for the great write up!
Okay, serious question here. I have a smallish tank (IM Nuvo 40) with lots of live rock and SPS, tons of flow and surface agitation, normal nutrient levels, and no skimmer.

I am interested in dabbling with carbon dosing simply to enhance bacterial food sources for my coral, while making sure nutrients don't bottom out. Do you think it's possible to dose some amount of carbon source at a significantly lower amount than normal, such that I am increasing bacteria for food, not majorly depleting oxygen too much, and not having a huge excess of bacteria that need to be skimmed out?

Thanks for your insight!

Hello,

Technically can dose a very small amount of a carbon source daily without a skimmer but personally I would not do it. There is no telling how the system will react. If you somehow dose incorrectly and have a bacteria bloom it could spell disaster due to a rapid depletion of oxygen.

If you do try it, go very slowly and as someone here suggested, run an airstone.

 

[ceaver]

Hello,

Technically can dose a very small amount of a carbon source daily without a skimmer but personally I would not do it. There is no telling how the system will react. If you somehow dose incorrectly and have a bacteria bloom it could spell disaster due to a rapid depletion of oxygen.

If you do try it, go very slowly and as someone here suggested, run an airstone.

Thanks, all. I had experimented recently with dosing vinegar, 3 ml for total water volume of ~31 gal, which I think is like the very initial day 1 dosage from the charts I've seen. I was doing that once per week. Definitely no bacteria blooms at that rate, and I was clearly going super slow. Would it still benefit my acros even if I were only dosing once or twice per week? In other words, is some extra bacterial food better than none, even if only intermittently?
Thanks again!