Bacterial Infections, STN

[gdemos]

I would not hesitate to dose MB7 or others like Aquavitro Remediation as part of a routine husbandry/regimen... you may struggle to find documented studies that this approach (call it good bacteria vs. bad bacteria) is effective on battling vibrio xx. You'll likely find more documentation on temperature, cyanide, run-off, acidity, etc. as the 'cause' of vibrio infection. none of us are purposely adding road run-off, raising tank temp, or otherwise poisoning our systems.... but we are harboring animals subject to stresses and subject to bacterial infections, we are potentially adding things to our systems (think "dirty" hands, infected corals, infected fish, infected frag plugs, arragonite, media)... all of which contribute to the possibility of bacterial infection.

So IMO (and this is what I do) why not go the bio-augmentation route? why note dose nitrifying bacteria, why not hit with strong UV after a while? i believe in this and the deplete/replenish approach; i.e., heavy Import, heavy Export of nutrients (feed heavy, skim heavy, water change, etc.) all this, and when you have a dying coral... prune it, remove it, do a big water change, then supplement. if you can accomplish this while keeping all else stable, i believe you are doing a beneficial thing.

-Greg

 

[Flippers4pups]

Awesome lecture:


And:

http://www.artificialreefs.org/Corals/diseasesfiles/Common Identified Coral Diseases.htm

 

[cilyjr]

Doesn't quite work that way.
What it does is remove the pathogens before it gets to the tank as those dips I mentioned kill those before it enters the system. Like a hand sanitizer does. It kills viruses and bad bacteria like BJD vibrio etc.

They feed on specific things like cold and flu does to us.

Nitrifying bacteria and bio diversity are a whole different subject.

Pretty much all hetrotrophic bacteria will use nitrate, V. shiloi absolutely will.

V. shiloi yields positive catalase and oxidase testing, reduces nitrate to nitite, is a facultative aerobe, and is capable of acidic fermentation(1).

I think pretty much all of the Vibrionaceae are hetrotrophic. And gram-negative. Gram-negative bacteria is good at resisting antibiotics.

Let's pretend for fun that there is going to be some different Vibrio bacteria in all systems (which I personally believe) and always be. Maybe an organism has a certain resistance to bacterial infection. No perhaps the organism has some stress inducing factor (temp, or alk swing come to mind) and is now dealing with that. The bacteria may have an opportunity to gain a foothold on the organism and after a few weeks some signs of white band disease (STN) show.

The OPs theory of out competing bacteria makes sense in this scenario and there are bacteria that will actively attack and kill other bacteria
Bdellovibrio has been observed to be predatory on some vibrio strains. Other hetrotrophs might just out compete



(1)Kushmaro A., Banin E., Loya Y., Stackebrandt E. and E. Rosenberg. 2001. Vibrio shiloi sp. nov., the causative agent of bleaching of the coral Oculina patagonica. International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology [Internet]

 

[cilyjr]

I dose a few different strains of bacteria for this reason. I also drop a few drops of iodine from time to time not because some people say that certain inverts require a small amount but rather because of its antiseptic qualities. This works for me it's all anecdotal obviously but it keeps my reef happy and me doing something

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Pretty much all hetrotrophic bacteria will use nitrate, V. shiloi absolutely will.

V. shiloi yields positive catalase and oxidase testing, reduces nitrate to nitite, is a facultative aerobe, and is capable of acidic fermentation(1).

I think pretty much all of the Vibrionaceae are hetrotrophic. And gram-negative. Gram-negative bacteria is good at resisting antibiotics.

Let's pretend for fun that there is going to be some different Vibrio bacteria in all systems (which I personally believe) and always be. Maybe an organism has a certain resistance to bacterial infection. No perhaps the organism has some stress inducing factor (temp, or alk swing come to mind) and is now dealing with that. The bacteria may have an opportunity to gain a foothold on the organism and after a few weeks some signs of white band disease (STN) show.

The OPs theory of out competing bacteria makes sense in this scenario and there are bacteria that will actively attack and kill other bacteria
Bdellovibrio has been observed to be predatory on some vibrio strains. Other hetrotrophs might just out compete



(1)Kushmaro A., Banin E., Loya Y., Stackebrandt E. and E. Rosenberg. 2001. Vibrio shiloi sp. nov., the causative agent of bleaching of the coral Oculina patagonica. International Journal of Systematic and Evolutionary Microbiology [Internet]

Good points. I concur on all of them. But it does go into the other conversation eluded to.
IMO , it's not just nitrifying bacteria we are trying to cultivate when bio diversity and competition are called into question.

Ie , I know a lot things that eat bacteria.

 

[gdemos]

no doubt that a 'bacterial balance' or quasi biological balance is critical to long-term success and should be included in the topic of "keeping things stable"

like @cilyjr , i also like lugols dose, bacterial dose, keeping flow, lots of flow random and heavy (I also like turkey basting), keeping detritus low especially any that settles on acro, grazing fish - grazing inverts, sponges (naturally growing filter feeders)

I liked Dr. Forest's overview and lecture, while i may not run out and dose an antibiotic or get a clam...this is a very worthy consideration (i also like the reference to tide <flow, water change>)his insight in real world knowledge transcending to hobbyists is fantastic.

 

[Mattrg02]

Could look into this tunze bacteria. Supposedly has bacteria that attacks vibrio. There is a thread on it here somewhere if you search.

https://www.marinedepot.com/Tunze_C...ts_Algae_Control-Tunze-TZ17200-FIADAL-vi.html

Seems to be mb7 under a Tunze name, no?

For what it’s worth, I just dosed some mb7. First off, my nitrates dropped in half overnight. Didn’t think this mb7 could do that so quickly.

 

[cilyjr]

Could look into this tunze bacteria. Supposedly has bacteria that attacks vibrio. There is a thread on it here somewhere if you search.

https://www.marinedepot.com/Tunze_C...ts_Algae_Control-Tunze-TZ17200-FIADAL-vi.html

I know nothing of this product. I believe it was dr. Tim who claimed this for his product. Who knows maybe they all have some strain of Bdellovibrio.

 

[Second Shot]

Seems to be mb7 under a Tunze name, no?

For what it’s worth, I just dosed some mb7. First off, my nitrates dropped in half overnight. Didn’t think this mb7 could do that so quickly.

It’s a powder so I wouldn’t think so.

 

[terri_ann]

Interesting discussion and I hope it will continue. Although I haven't read a lot of published articles, there does seem to be some definite correlations of which bacterias are present in the diseased corals. I also find it interesting that many times I have heard hobbyists say that stn can be seen when the acro is starved. I'm wondering how we/hobbyist can determine if the stn is caused by starvation or the bad bacteria...if we think starvation and then increase feedings, the amount of time waiting to see 'if' the increase is helping, could possibly be a 'too late' scenerio to recognize it was bacterial?

 

[cilyjr]

I have been regularly dosing some form of bacterial supplement for several months now. I started in Oct with mb7 and now use a rotation of different brands 1 each week.

Previous to this I had a colony of A. valadia that would show signs of tissue necrosis at the base. As of early December I have yet to see any signs of an atm event. This is completely anecdotal and can by no means be used to draw a conclusion as there are other things I've changed but it is interesting.

 

[cilyjr]

Since my last post I've had an A. Millipora stn. It was brought over from a friend's tank and was doing poorly to start with.

I'm still using a few different bacterial supplements in rotation. Mostly bacter7 and tunze care bacter. Is it helping? I'm not sure but it makes me feel better.

There are 2 products that claim to have an active anti vibrio agent.

Dr tims eco balance states that they contain a strain of bacillus (which secrete an antibiotic protien) that has an effect on V. Shiloi.

Tunze also claims to actively inhibit vibrio bacteria but does not provide an details on what in their product produces the effect.

As of now there is nothing on the market that definitively states a bdellovibrio strain, which was my initial assumption.

 

[2una]

Since my last post I've had an A. Millipora stn. It was brought over from a friend's tank and was doing poorly to start with.

I'm still using a few different bacterial supplements in rotation. Mostly bacter7 and tunze care bacter. Is it helping? I'm not sure but it makes me feel better.

There are 2 products that claim to have an active anti vibrio agent.

Dr tims eco balance states that they contain a strain of bacillus (which secrete an antibiotic protien) that has an effect on V. Shiloi.

Tunze also claims to actively inhibit vibrio bacteria but does not provide an details on what in their product produces the effect.

As of now there is nothing on the market that definitively states a bdellovibrio strain, which was my initial assumption.

Maybe not US side but there is also this one - this is the 2nd/3rd product i've seen that reads with the same theory(altho fish oriented).

Aqua-Crobes is a biological product of natural occurring bacteria and enzymes that reduce the threat to fish caused by pathogenic bacteria. Through years of field and laboratory research we have developed a line of specifically formulated microbes for maintaining water quality, increasing growth rates and ensuring the health of your aquatic animals. Aqua-Crobes is a competitive excluder of pathogenic microbial diseases such as Vibrio, Pseudomonas, Aeromonas, Streptococcus, Allococcus, Myxobacterium, Columnaris and other gram negative bacteria. The way it works is by creating competition with negative bacteria by introducing bacteria to the water that is beneficial to the fish that live in it. This is a process known as competitive exclusion. Aqua-Crobes competes with these pathogenic bacteria for the nutrients in the water that they depend on for their survival while waiting to attack your fish. At the same time little peptides are produced that are toxic to finfish and shellfish pathogens.

When used as directed, Aqua-Crobes will reduce the bacterial count of the pathogens to such low levels that they will not be a threat to the health of your fish. It is impossible to completely remove all the pathogenic bacteria from the aquarium, but Aqua-Crobes, when used on a regular basis, will keep the pathogens levels so low they will not affect your fish. Aqua-Crobes is not a medication or chemo- therapeutic product and is safe for all your aquatic animals.

Aqua-Crobes does not compete with other bacteria supplements such as BioGro due to the fact that the two products are removing different nutrients from the water. While BioGro removes nutrients which normally feed algae (ammonia, nitrogen, etc), Aqua-Crobes removes the nutrients which e.g. Aeromonas and Vibrio require to survive in your aquarium (fish waste materials). Because they work to remove different nutrients, BioGro and Aqua-Crobes can both be used at the same time. It is also highly effective in many temperatures of water and at different ranges of pH levels. Whether you have fresh, brackish or salt water environments to care for, you are set with Aqua-Crobes!

Aqua-Crobes is one of the best kept secrets in the commercial fish and shrimp breeding industry. It promotes healthy hatchery of many species of fish and shrimp and decreases the rate of mortality. It effectively fights off pathogenic microbial diseases. It improves hatchery water conditions and increases survivability and growth. Aqua-Crobes also improves artemia, copepods and brachionus survival by improving water quality for culture. It is used in hatcheries, grow out and holding systems, recirculating systems, ponds and any water body to improve water quality and reduce disease.
Maintaining good water quality is one of the most important factors in aquarium keeping, raising shellfish, finfish and other aquatic organisms. Aqua-Crobes helps you to reach the goal of providing a healthy environment for all your aquatic species.

Aqua-Crobes contains only Biosafety Level Class 1 bacteria which are completely non-toxic, naturally occurring organisms/enzymes, and confirmed to be non-genetically manipulated organisms.

 

[cilyjr]

Thanks I'll explore this more

 

[2una]

Thanks I'll explore this more

Is also this one i know of
https://www.seawayaqua.co.uk/_p/prd1/3914267651/arem-v---disease-preventative

I had what i believe was a bad vibrio breakout a year ago & this one i believe worked at fighting it off.
I'm talking multiple stn/rtn that would kill off 1 coral then move to another healthy one close by or if there was not one close by would appear somewhere else.Kinda ruled out elements with icp's & my nutrients weren't bottomed out either.

 

[cilyjr]

Thanks. I wish someone would be more vocal about what's going in these products. I appreciate Dr. Tim's for doing that and will try that product next. It will be a few months before I'm ready to purchase a new bacteria product.

 

[chicago]

Any updates

 

[chicago]

Any updates

 

[Ashley Kekua]

vibrio causes stn or rtn? Please help me. I'm confused...

 

[Daniel 123]

This thread had me researching, found a study done in which corals were introduced to vibrio, A glimpse of hope was found in the treatment of vibrio. I will quote the article,
"One possible explanation for the failure of intracellular V. shiloi to form colonies was that the treatment of the corals with relatively high concentrations of gentamicin and methyl-β-d-galactopyranoside, prior to crushing, actually killed the intracellular bacteria."
Here is a link to the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC92107/


Gentamicin is an anti biotic used to treat several different types of bacterial infection. It works by stopping the bacteria from making protein, which typically kills the bacteria, the methyl-β-d-galactopyranoside is some sort of yeast/carb and I am really not sure its purpose as I have no chemical background and pretty much failed high school chemistry, anyone with more information please shed some light.