Bacto balance help

[USMA36]

I have a 220 reef. Currently dosing 6ml a day of Bacto balance for about the last 2 weeks. I was dosing 4ml for about a month. My Phosphate is now pretty steady At .06 tested using Hannah ULR. My nitrates are holding steady at 10 tested with a Hannah hr nitrate checker . I’d like to see them drop to the 3-5 range. I am also using reef moonshine without water changes as they recommend. First question… In the last month I have started to have a cyano issue. Is this common with Bacto balance? What’s my best route to resolving this and preventing its return? 2. Is there a way to find out how much of each element I’m dosing with the Bacto balance so I don’t overdose with moonshine elements? 3. How should I go about getting to the 3-5ppm of nitrates? I am guessing water changes are probably the easiest even though reef moonshine recommends against them unless absolutely needed.

 

[KrisReef]

@USMA36
I don't used bacto balance or moonshiners, I can't help with that but I did ask our mods to move this post to a "better?" location for people to find it and comment.

Generic comment. Those parameters look good. That you are having cyano issues is frustrating. I use Chemiclean for that but a lot of purists don't like antibiotics and try balancing parameters. hth Kris

 

[TigerReef]

Adding @Lou Ekus - CEO of Tropic Marin

I am sorry to hear about your cyano battle. I am using (and having success with) a combo of Bacto Balance (dosing 2.6ml/daily) + Elimi NP (dosing 0.66ml/daily) 165 gal reef tank. But hopefully Lou or Hans will be able to direct you. Following...

 

[ninjamyst]

Adding @Lou Ekus - CEO of Tropic Marin

I am sorry to hear about your cyano battle. I am using (and having success with) a combo of Bacto Balance (dosing 2.6ml/daily) + Elimi NP (dosing 0.66ml/daily) 165 gal reef tank. But hopefully Lou or Hans will be able to direct you. Following...

Why would you need to dose bacto balance plus elimi np at the same time??

 

[TigerReef]

Why would you need to dose bacto balance plus elimi np at the same time??

Apologies, my note above doesn't read correctly. I meant I used elimi NP to lower NO3 & PO4 to a ratio of ~10:1, then I switched over to Bacto Balance.

Thank you for the callout. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Natural_Reefer]

Man, I would love to have your numbers!
I was using Bacto Balance for over 6 months and always had Higher Nitrate (30-40) with good Phospate (0.08-0.12).
I switched to Elimi NP since August and now the numbers are reversed with Low Nitrate (10-15) and higher Phospate (0.20-0.25)
I am not sure what is going since everything remaining the same with the tank (including feeding habit).
Maybe i should move back to Bacto Balance since N is lower now?

 

[Chris Spaulding]

My tank is on the shine and dose Bacto and Elimi- NP depending on PO4 levels. In the colors book from Reefmonshine it addresses Cyano and using Bactria to eliminate it or actually replace it good for the bad. I also at one point had a Cyano out break and did use Chemiclean, then added carbon after gone and dosed very heavy Biodigest , MB7,and Zeo Back.

 

[Becks17]

I had a cyano outbreak when I first started dosing bacto balance, but had success significantly reducing cyano in my system by shifting the Bacto Balance dosing to after the lights go off, rather than the recommended lights on.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I have a 220 reef. Currently dosing 6ml a day of Bacto balance for about the last 2 weeks. I was dosing 4ml for about a month. My Phosphate is now pretty steady At .06 tested using Hannah ULR. My nitrates are holding steady at 10 tested with a Hannah hr nitrate checker . I’d like to see them drop to the 3-5 range. I am also using reef moonshine without water changes as they recommend. First question… In the last month I have started to have a cyano issue. Is this common with Bacto balance? What’s my best route to resolving this and preventing its return? 2. Is there a way to find out how much of each element I’m dosing with the Bacto balance so I don’t overdose with moonshine elements? 3. How should I go about getting to the 3-5ppm of nitrates? I am guessing water changes are probably the easiest even though reef moonshine recommends against them unless absolutely needed.

First let's start with a little bit more information... How long has this system been running?

 

[USMA36]

First let's start with a little bit more information... How long has this system been running?

Short answer: this tanks been up since Halloween 2021. Long answer: I started with a 90 gallon 5 years ago. In October of 2021 I upgraded to a 220. Added about 80 lbs of rock from my old tank and a couple of cups of sand. I added another 120ish lbs of rock and a sand bed. Prior to the cyano I had greenish brown algae of some sort. Blew off rocks easily. That’s gone now. Cyano has been slowly building over the last month. Other algae since August. Prior to August no issues. I lowered my dose of Bacto balance to 4ml per day. I haven’t noticed a change in the cyano. I just started a chemiclean treatments today. I’d like to prevent future cyano outbreaks by determining the cause.

 

[USMA36]

Man, I would love to have your numbers!
I was using Bacto Balance for over 6 months and always had Higher Nitrate (30-40) with good Phospate (0.08-0.12).
I switched to Elimi NP since August and now the numbers are reversed with Low Nitrate (10-15) and higher Phospate (0.20-0.25)
I am not sure what is going since everything remaining the same with the tank (including feeding habit).
Maybe i should move back to Bacto Balance since N is lower now?

I do believe you are supposed to get your nitrates and phosphates down to lower levels prior to using Bacto.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Short answer: this tanks been up since Halloween 2021. Long answer: I started with a 90 gallon 5 years ago. In October of 2021 I upgraded to a 220. Added about 80 lbs of rock from my old tank and a couple of cups of sand. I added another 120ish lbs of rock and a sand bed. Prior to the cyano I had greenish brown algae of some sort. Blew off rocks easily. That’s gone now. Cyano has been slowly building over the last month. Other algae since August. Prior to August no issues. I lowered my dose of Bacto balance to 4ml per day. I haven’t noticed a change in the cyano. I just started a chemiclean treatments today. I’d like to prevent future cyano outbreaks by determining the cause.

It seems like your values are pretty good at this point. I wouldn't worry too much about that 10 ppm nitrate. Not that it wouldn't be nice to have it a little lower. But I doubt it is the major factor in your cyano growth at this point.
I guess I am at a little bit of a disadvantage because I don't know exactly what the Moonshiners products are and how they influence things. I am also a big fan of periodic (not necessarily frequent) water changes. Without the knowledge of the Moonshiners stuff, it is really hard for me to know what to say. You might try asking them what they think about your situation. They might have a better answer or suggestion for you. I don't want to tell you the wrong thing that might influence the use of those products and cause a negative impact.

 

[USMA36]

It seems like your values are pretty good at this point. I wouldn't worry too much about that 10 ppm nitrate. Not that it wouldn't be nice to have it a little lower. But I doubt it is the major factor in your cyano growth at this point.
I guess I am at a little bit of a disadvantage because I don't know exactly what the Moonshiners products are and how they influence things. I am also a big fan of periodic (not necessarily frequent) water changes. Without the knowledge of the Moonshiners stuff, it is really hard for me to know what to say. You might try asking them what they think about your situation. They might have a better answer or suggestion for you. I don't want to tell you the wrong thing that might influence the use of those products and cause a negative impact.

Thank you for responding. Moonshine is a trace dosing system where you dose each individual element daily or monthly according to a monthly icp test. I am trying to figure out if one or more of the elements is being overdosed as bacto balance has trace elements in it. Is there a way to know how much and what trace elements I’m dosing in my 4ml of bacto balance? Knowing the amounts would be useful to many people. I was also trying to get a feel of other people had issues with cyano that use your system and how they overcame it. As I understand it carbon dosing can make cyano more likely. Maybe I went from 4-6ml a day too quickly and that caused it.

 

[Hans-Werner]

First question… In the last month I have started to have a cyano issue. Is this common with Bacto balance? What’s my best route to resolving this and preventing its return?

To my knowledge this is not a common problem with NP-Bacto-Balance. Cyanos may point to dropping phosphate concentrations of high iron dosage. How much iron is dose with Moonshiners?

If nitrate is not dropping with organic carbon dosing please check for nitrite. Nitrite may give a false-high nitrate indication.

2. Is there a way to find out how much of each element I’m dosing with the Bacto balance so I don’t overdose with moonshine elements?

The concentrations in NP-Bacto-Balance are Sr 7900 ppm, Ba 12.3 ppm, Cr 0.5 ppm, Mn 13.9 ppm, Fe 7.0 ppm, Co 0.6 ppm, Ni 2.5 ppm, Cu 0.2 ppm, Zn 1.2 ppm and B 1300 ppm.

3. How should I go about getting to the 3-5ppm of nitrates?

Please check for nitrite. Maybe this is the easiest explanation for nitrate concentrations not dropping.

 

[USMA36]

To my knowledge this is not a common problem with NP-Bacto-Balance. Cyanos may point to dropping phosphate concentrations of high iron dosage. How much iron is dose with Moonshiners?

If nitrate is not dropping with organic carbon dosing please check for nitrite. Nitrite may give a false-high nitrate indication.


The concentrations in NP-Bacto-Balance are Sr 7900 ppm, Ba 12.3 ppm, Cr 0.5 ppm, Mn 13.9 ppm, Fe 7.0 ppm, Co 0.6 ppm, Ni 2.5 ppm, Cu 0.2 ppm, Zn 1.2 ppm and B 1300 ppm.


Please check for nitrite. Maybe this is the easiest explanation for nitrate concentrations not dropping.

Awesome thanks for taking the time to breakdown everything. I’ll have to order i nitrite test. I haven’t tested nitrite in years. Those concentrations you list are in what quantity of bacto balance solution?

 

[USMA36]

I’m dosing .07 ML of reef moonshiners iron each day to 200 gallons of water. I will cut that out and see what happens on my next icp.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Awesome thanks for taking the time to breakdown everything. I’ll have to order i nitrite test. I haven’t tested nitrite in years. Those concentrations you list are in what quantity of bacto balance solution?

Hi, ppm is a concentration like % and applies to any quantity. A different expression for ppm is mg/l. This makes clear that the given quantities in mg (Milligrams) are in one 1l-bottle of NP-Bacto-Balance.

 

[hans4811]

Usma..any updates ?

I‘m also having cyano issues and using NP-Bacto-Balance, along with the Moonshiners method. Started with NP-Elimi back in April to drop my P04 below 0.1, then switched to NP-Bacto-Balance on 06/09 dosing 2ml in a 70gal total system. That may have been a bad decision on that amount to start, as I’m now only dosing .4 ml and my N04 and P04 have never been steadier. Tank is 3 yrs old now….

But for the last few months, I’ve also been battling this reddish/brown algae only on and in the sand bed, rocks are fine, like some sort of cyano/diatom dust on top, which blows off easy using a baster, and the filmy red stuff in the sand that looks like cyano…goes away at night in and on the sand, and reappears when lights come on.

Started in just low flow areas in the back corners but now has started growing everywhere. Started a few days ago a more aggressive approach…vacuuming out as much as I can using a small hose so as not to take out a ton of water…like a few gals each session daily, then using @sonnyx concoction of diy snow and mb7. Dropped down intensity of lights as well as cutting off an hour of total time lights on. Also stopped dosing NP-Bacto-Balance atm based on a video I saw from @Lou Ekus …also replaced all my filters on RODI station, trying to reduce silicates. Think these may also be coming from the 2 part products I’m using…may switch to that BRS Hybrid 2 part using TM products instead…

To my knowledge this is not a common problem with NP-Bacto-Balance. Cyanos may point to dropping phosphate concentrations of high iron dosage. How much iron is dose with Moonshiners?

What @Hans-Werner said here made me pause…stopped dosing iron as well from Moonshiners, even though my last ICP test in Nov showed iron content of undetectable amount.

Plus at times when I was adjusting the dose of NP, I would see Phos zero out occasionally on the Hanna checker and Nitrates < 1. Started dosing NeoPhos and NeoNitro at those points to bring ‘em back up.

My last test on 12/12 showed N03 5.6 and P04 0.14….

Sorry for the long winded response…this is driving my OCD crazy…

 

[hans4811]

Here’s my latest ICP test…just for reference…

Reducing my drops of iodide and the others that are low are the normal additions I make each month In the Moonshiners method….

 

[Hans-Werner]

The most common cause for cyanobacteria as you see them in my eyes is an imbalance of phosphate in substrate compared to phosphate in the water.

I see two possible reasons for this imbalance:

- Lowering phosphate concentration in the water.
- Bringing phosphate up with ortho-phosphates which may adsorb to substrate.

From an own approach in killing cyanos and from the R2R thread on the "root cause of cyanobacteria" I know that most likely cyanobacteria live in mutualistic symbiosis with bacteria under the cyanobacteria mat. Most likely the bacteria are the actual phosphate and iron releasing agent. The same seems true in dinoflagellates.

It is more effective to fight the cyanobacteria when not only vacuuming out the mats but also disturbing the bacteria below the mats. I filled a plastic bottle with some dry Pro-Reef sea salt I used for the water change and let it trickle out of the bottle to the substrate while pumps were turned off. I regulated the flow of salt with one finger at the opening of the plastic bottle.

In the disturbed places cyanos needed longer to come back. It was not too much salt and it was included in the calculation of the total salt needed for this water change.

Nevertheless you will also need patience until the cyanobacteria are gone and substrate and water have found their balance again.