Bad Night...

[BZOFIQ]

Sometimes seals leak. A stand doesn't have to be perfectly precisely absolutely level.

I couldn't disagree more. I've seen plenty of tanks fail because they were out of level.

There might be other reasons for failure of course.

 

[count krunk]

Let me clarify, it should be level. But I don't think it not being perfectly level would cause such a leak to develop this quickly.

OP said he leveled it as well with the help of a skilled friend.

 

[Hitch08]

Well, all, I decided to buy a new tank. I don't have enough confidence in myself to silicone it all. I'll always wonder.

My LFS graciously offered to take my corals. I took them up to him tonight. I really appreciate him doing that. He couldn't take the fish, but I should be able to take care of them. I think that I'll start a new thread with my new build. Going to need more thoughts and comments. Please post up. Many thanks for all of the help so far!

 

[eb_reef]

same tank with the old stand or will you up/down grade?

 

[Seminoles76]

I disagree quite a bit with this. If your stand top is not level, then the aquarium will be under a tremendous amount of pressure. The problem gets worse as the tank gets bigger. All this stress will need to be held back by the silicone.

In fact, I would bet that non-level stands are likely the largest contributors to silicone seal failures.

Well...I guess those silicone seals did a heck of a job for four years if the stand was in fact not level.

IMHO I'd say the fault lies with gambling on a larger tank built by Marineland! I personally saw two Marineland 180's go within 1 years time. Both with seams leaking from the bottom.

 

[Hitch08]

Need to check the old stand once i get the old tank off of it. Hope to use the old stand with a new tank.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Check your stand and get a sheet of styrofoam under the tank.

People will always argue whether its needed or not with framed tanks but there is no detriment in adding one. To me; its a must.

Knocking on wood, I've never had a leak, always used styrofoam or pink foam 1/2-3/4" thick.

What brand tank did you buy? I've never had problems with Aqueon (Formerly All-Glass). Their tanks are straighter with much better/cleaner silicone job than many others. I feel Deep Blue have always had good quality too as far as pre-made tanks are concerned.

 

[Instigate]

Check your stand and get a sheet of styrofoam under the tank.

People will always argue whether its needed or not with framed tanks but there is no detriment in adding one. To me; its a must.

Knocking on wood, I've never had a leak, always used styrofoam or pink foam 1/2-3/4" thick.

What brand tank did you buy? I've never had problems with Aqueon (Formerly All-Glass). Their tanks are straighter with much better/cleaner silicone job than many others. I feel Deep Blue have always had good quality too as far as pre-made tanks are concerned.

Having foam under a rimmed tank at best will do nothing. At worst, it could actually cause a tank failure. What are the odds that it will cause a failure? I don't know. But I know you're not getting any benefit from using it, only risk.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Check your stand and get a sheet of styrofoam under the tank.

People will always argue whether its needed or not with framed tanks but there is no detriment in adding one. To me; its a must.

Knocking on wood, I've never had a leak, always used styrofoam or pink foam 1/2-3/4" thick.

Having foam under a rimmed tank at best will do nothing. At worst, it could actually cause a tank failure. What are the odds that it will cause a failure? I don't know. But I know you're not getting any benefit from using it, only risk.

I've gone through more than 10 tanks (upgrades, not failures) over past 15 years and all of them had styrofoam under them. Not a single failure. I currently have 5 40 Breeders in service on single sheet of foam, no problems whatsover.

The consensus among the Brooklyn Aquarium Society members I see monthly is "always use the styrofoam". Never heard a complaint. I've seen out of level tanks fail many, many times.

My last 180G standing on a self made plywood stand was on styrofoam for close to 7 years without a hitch, on a very "jumpy" floor in a post-war NY apartment building. I always wondered when it'll go through the floor, Survived all these years with dog/kids jumping of the sofa without a hitch. Gave it away because after moving for 3 days straight I knew I just had to let it go as I had nothing left in me to move tanks/stands of this size.

I know this is a hotly debated topic, but I will never setup a tank without a sheet of styrofoam under it. I guess styrofoam is not for you

 

[eb_reef]

Can some help me understand how using styrofoam will hurt? It sounds like it's just not necessary for some tanks, right?

 

[Flippers4pups]

Plastic rimmed glass tanks have a bead of silicone between the plastic trim and glass. The plastic rim and silicone will flex a little to compensate for some deflection/ non-coplanar. Some tanks can absorb as much as 1/8" deviation, some as little as 1/16", because of this silicone/plastic trim.

That's why foam board isn't needed.

 

[Instigate]

I've gone through more than 10 tanks (upgrades, not failures) over past 15 years and all of them had styrofoam under them. Not a single failure. I currently have 5 40 Breeders in service on single sheet of foam, no problems whatsover.

The consensus among the Brooklyn Aquarium Society members I see monthly is "always use the styrofoam". Never heard a complaint. I've seen out of level tanks fail many, many times.

My last 180G standing on a self made plywood stand was on styrofoam for close to 7 years without a hitch, on a very "jumpy" floor in a post-war NY apartment building. I always wondered when it'll go through the floor, Survived all these years with dog/kids jumping of the sofa without a hitch. Gave it away because after moving for 3 days straight I knew I just had to let it go as I had nothing left in me to move tanks/stands of this size.

I know this is a hotly debated topic, but I will never setup a tank without a sheet of styrofoam under it. I guess styrofoam is not for you

I'm glad you never had a failure and I hope you never do. But your anecdotal evidence proves nothing and neither does the consensus of your club. The fact is that it's not needed and likely doing nothing but inducing risk. The risk may be minute, but why introduce it in the first place? I would only use foam on an acrylic or rimless.

Can some help me understand how using styrofoam will hurt? It sounds like it's just not necessary for some tanks, right?

The risk is that when you fill the tank you are going to compress that foam and depending on the density of the foam you use it has the possibility of creating a pressure point on the glass. You could avoid this by using very dense foam I suppose. I admit it's likely a slim chance but if you're not getting any benefit then what's the point?

 

[BZOFIQ]

I'm glad you never had a failure and I hope you never do.

Thank you.

The risk is that when you fill the tank you are going to compress that foam and depending on the density of the foam you use it has the possibility of creating a pressure point on the glass. You could avoid this by using very dense foam I suppose. I admit it's likely a slim chance but if you're not getting any benefit then what's the point?

The 180 didnt compress the styrofoam much and now each 40-breeder barely made any indentation in the pink foam when I moved it this year from one side of the room to another.

The risk is that when you fill the tank you are going to compress that foam and depending on the density of the foam you use it has the possibility of creating a pressure point on the glass. You could avoid this by using very dense foam I suppose.

Pressure points from foam? Do you even hear yourself. There is ton (often literally) of pressure from sand/water/rocks and you're worried about pressure from foam?

That said, I will continue using foam under every tank I setup in the future with the 250 coming online by spring 2019 (fingers crossed).

 

[mckinney0171]

Hello all. New to R2R, but not all that new to the hobby. Not too proud of this post, but need some thoughts.

A message popped up on my phone last night that there was water detected in the stand under my tank. It is...was... a 120 Marineland. I have not figured where the water was leaking from, but I think it was probably coming from a seam along the bottom. It was not pouring out, more of a constant drip, most of it was ending up in the 40g sump. Some water was coming out of the back.

What a heart breaker.

Started this journey in late 2014. Built my own stand (I'm wondering if that played a role), canopy, made a sump from a 40g breeder, bought rock from TBS, etc. I was moving quite slowly with the tank. Last year, things didn't move forward all that much because my wife had some medical issues. I ended up with some cyano. Over the winter and into this year, I got it humming along. Was dosing vinegar and the nitrates and phosphates were basically zero. The relatively few corals that I have looked great. Trumpet coral was growing new heads. My green Stylophora was growing in every direction. My leathers and soft corals looked great. My clown pair were protecting their eggs. On Sunday, I bought some more corals from my LFS. So much for all of that.

The fish are now in the sump. I put the rock with the eggs on it in there as well, the clowns are still protecting them. I moved the various corals into my QT. It's small. All of the rock is now in what was previously my mixing container - a 32 g Brute trash can. Both tanks and the Brute have heaters and power heads running in them. Temps are good, but that's probably the only thing that's good.

Anyway, it seems that the best path forward is for me to give as much of my livestock to my LFS as possible. He's a good guy and I think he'll take the stuff and maybe even hold some of it for me.

However, I don't know where to go from here. As noted above, I don't know if my stand played a role. I was as meticulous as I could be in building it. Near the end, I had a friend who does finish carpentry come over and check it out with me. One end was a little low, which we fixed. As a result, I'm a bit skeptical that's the cause. But, who knows?

Any thoughts/comments/suggestions would be appreciated.

Bummed.

There are some really nice all in one tanks available on the market now. Red Sea and Innovative marine are two companies that I have a lot of trust in. If it were me I would look into one of these. And keep it small. There isn't that big of a need to do a massive display these days. It's much easier to keep a nano tank than it was at one time.

 

[Instigate]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

The 180 didnt compress the styrofoam much and now each 40-breeder barely made any indentation in the pink foam when I moved it this year from one side of the room to another.

Yes, the pink stuff would be the stuff to use and minimize compression. So in your case you don't have much if any risk but that doesn't mean your foam is giving you any benefits...

Pressure points from foam? Do you even hear yourself. There is ton (often literally) of pressure from sand/water/rocks and you're worried about pressure from foam?

It would be nice if you thought about this logically before leaving any further condescending remarks. The rim of the tank will compress the foam possibly allowing the foam to come in contact with the glass, depending on the density of the foam and how think the rim is(With the pink foam this is not likely). The downward pressure of the tank and it's contents should only be putting pressure on the rim of the tank. There is a massive difference between the pressure of a rock sitting on the inside of the glass and the pressure of the whole tank and it's contents applying uneven force on the exposed bottom glass between the frame. I have admitted several times that this is unlikely with a thinner, more dense foam, but I ask again. Why induce the risk? As @Flippers4pups has explained it's not needed and as I have explained it is only inducing risk, however little.

That said, I will continue using foam under every tank I setup in the future with the 250 coming online by spring 2019 (fingers crossed).

My goal was never to change your mind but to lay out the facts for people who may come read this thread.

 

[Aquavaj]

Is there a chance of running into warranty issues by using foam in rimmed tanks?

 

[PhreeByrd]

The problem with foam is that if your filled tank does not compress it 100% at all of its intended contact points, then it is an unstable substrate for the tank.
Assuming that it does compress 100%, then it's no longer serving any purpose at the contact area, but it is exerting some pressure against areas that are not designed to be structurally supporting. In both circumstances, it's a waste of time and performing no function of any value; and may actually be detrimental.

 

[BZOFIQ]

The problem with foam is that if your filled tank does not compress it 100% at all of its intended contact points, then it is an unstable substrate for the tank.

I think you have a wrong idea on the "foam" being used here. It's a very solid foam, the compression is very minimal. We are not setting the tank on a water bed.

As mentioned earlier, I had to remove my 5 40-Gallon tanks from the stand this year and I can tell there was about 1-2mm indentation of the tank's perimeter in the foam. What I've noticed that in some places the indentation was more pronounced than it others. I believe this is where the foam manifests its usefulness. It evens out any surface and removes any pressure points; much the same way a memory foam mattress removes pressure points from your body when laying on it.

Assuming that it does compress 100%, then it's no longer serving any purpose at the contact area.

Have you ever seen a tank set on a styrofoam or pink foam underlayment? That's like saying assuming the earth is flat, - it does not compress nearly as much.

but it is exerting some pressure against areas that are not designed to be structurally supporting.

I believe I've covered this before. There is no pressure exerted on anything because the foam never touches the glass underneath the tank. Even if the foam touched the tank, the pressure exerted from the inside of the tank is FAR, FAR greater.

In both circumstances, it's a waste of time and performing no function of any value; and may actually be detrimental.

For you, perhaps....assuming the earth is indeed flat.

 

[PhreeByrd]

If you think the foam is doing anything, then you need a basic physics lesson.

Pretty sure the earth is not flat. But the substrate for your aquarium should be. And solid.

 

[BZOFIQ]

There, I liked your post.

I find it fascinating when people are "pretty sure" earth is not flat.