Balancing phosphates and nitrates.

Oshanickreef

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So i have been really trying to get my phosphates and nitrates stable for a few months now. I feed a lot of Foods and powders and run gfo and currently my levels are:

P04= .16
N03= 2.5

Alk= 7
Cal= 425
Mag=1500

My p04 has increased from .1 to .16 in the past 4 days and i have noticed a lot of little green algae’s starting to grow and much film algae on the glass. I chatted with a lfs and they told me to get the best growth for my acros i need to get my p04 up to .5 and my nitrates no higher than 5. This sounded crazy high to me but i did a little reading and i feel he may be right?

Any advice is appreciated! I have a mixed reef with lots of lps, sps, and few softies. About 23 fish. 90 gallon tank with a 35 gal sump with a fuge and a big slimmer that i drain/clean once per month.

Thanks
 
So i have been really trying to get my phosphates and nitrates stable for a few months now. I feed a lot of Foods and powders and run gfo and currently my levels are:

P04= .16
N03= 2.5

Alk= 7
Cal= 425
Mag=1500

My p04 has increased from .1 to .16 in the past 4 days and i have noticed a lot of little green algae’s starting to grow and much film algae on the glass. I chatted with a lfs and they told me to get the best growth for my acros i need to get my p04 up to .5 and my nitrates no higher than 5. This sounded crazy high to me but i did a little reading and i feel he may be right?

Any advice is appreciated! I have a mixed reef with lots of lps, sps, and few softies. About 23 fish. 90 gallon tank with a 35 gal sump with a fuge and a big slimmer that i drain/clean once per month.

Thanks
I am going to disagree. I feel that PO4 should be 0.02 to 0.08 and that NO3 should be between 5ppm and 20ppm. Having PO4 around 0.5ppm would worry me since some studies have shown phosphates above 0.2ppm can start to inhibit coral calcification.
 
When my PO4 hit 0.16 I had the start of a green hair algae break out until I realised what it was, and the cause, and it developed over a period of weeks/m0nths.

The ‘general’ recommendation for phosphate is 0.03ppm so very low so assuming you want to get it low, and not go to 0.5. it sounds like the GFO needs changing and keep changing it as and when the PO4 goes up again which could be often depending on the levels of phosphate in the system.

Personally the best thing I ever did for my system was locking phosphate down, and I’ve never had an algae issues since.

The nitrate looks fine and you could go higher if you want to provide the corals with more food. My reef ‘glows’ at around 10-12ppm nitrate and is currently around 16-18.
 
.5 mg/l PO4 is fine. Here's a good video to start with:


And here's a list of papers to read. The first three were done with a closed system at Southampton Univeristy started over ten years ago, so longer term than is often seen. And keep in mind corals are looking at the TOTAL amount of nitrogen and phosphate available, organic, inorganic, dissolved and particulate. PO4 and Nitrate are small parts of the overall nitrogen and phosphorus picture the coral holobiont is working with.

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub

Nitrate enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full

Increased phosphate increases growth
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588

Here's two quotes from two preeminate coral reef researchers:

"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.

Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path.
" Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

Conkrite, et al, 1999 gives much higher phosphate levels for the ocean surface than the .003 mg/l sometimes recommended
https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/oceanbiology/reprints/conkrightetal_DSR1999.pdf
 
@Timfish1 Let me start by commending you for this excellent post. Unfortunately, I cannot watch the video right now but I will go back and look at it when I can.

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub

Nitrate enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full
I may not remember my molar math correctly, so maybe you can help verify this. This is what these three studies use for their High Nutrient water.
(high nitrogen/high phosphorus (HN/HP = ~ 6.5 μM NO3−/~0.3 μM PO4−)
If my math is correct, that works out to 0.0285ppm of PO4. While high to what is measured on many reefs, I would still consider this on the low side.

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full
This one is full of interesting information. It is looking at it from a different perspective but it most certainly could support much higher PO4 numbers. I believe the highest studies of these were done at 0.3ppm but I need to dig into it more. I find this one fascinating from any number of perspectives.


While this study does show increased growth at 0.5ppm it also shows low coral skeletal density and increased brittleness at those levels.

You have definitely given me something to think about and I really need to watch the video tonight!
 
.5 mg/l PO4 is fine. Here's a good video to start with:


And here's a list of papers to read. The first three were done with a closed system at Southampton Univeristy started over ten years ago, so longer term than is often seen. And keep in mind corals are looking at the TOTAL amount of nitrogen and phosphate available, organic, inorganic, dissolved and particulate. PO4 and Nitrate are small parts of the overall nitrogen and phosphorus picture the coral holobiont is working with.

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub

Nitrate enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full

Increased phosphate increases growth
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588

Here's two quotes from two preeminate coral reef researchers:

"When I see the colors of some of these low nutrient tanks, I can't help but be reminded of bleached coral reefs. It should therefore not come as a surprise that feeding corals in such systems becomes a very important component in these systems. Though reefs are often catagorized as nutrient "deserts" the influx of nutrients in the form of particulates and plankton is quite high when the total volume of water passing over a reef is taken into consideration.

Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path.
" Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

"Imported nutrients are usually transported to reefs from rivers; but if there are no rivers, as with reefs remote from land masses, nutrients can only come from surface ocean circulation. Often this supply is poor, and thus the vast ocean expanses have been refered to as "nutrient deserts". The Indo-Pacific has many huge atolls in these supposed deserts which testify to the resilience of reefs, but the corals themselves may lack the lush appearance of those of more fertile waters. Many reefs have another major supply of inorganic nutrients as, under certain conditions, surface currents moving against a reef face may cause deep ocean water to be drawn to the surface. This "upwelled" water is often rich in phosphorus and other essential chemicals." J. E. N. Veron "Corals of Austrailia and the Indo-Pacific" pg 30

Conkrite, et al, 1999 gives much higher phosphate levels for the ocean surface than the .003 mg/l sometimes recommended
https://gmao.gsfc.nasa.gov/research/oceanbiology/reprints/conkrightetal_DSR1999.pdf

The video is amazing! I’m just gonna turn my gfo off... lol i have it running 10 min on, 5 min off all day. I may just turn it off.

Love the post! I now have reading material for my upcoming flight! Thanks!
 
The more you feed, the more frequently you need to replace GFO. It claims 2-3 months but if you feed heavy, I would say monthly. The phosphates recently started affecting my hammer and frogspawn corals but after a fresh healthy dose of GFO (and a few days) the corals are getting back to their old selves.
 

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