Balling compared to Triton

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sounds like a good task for you Randy. I see an article. But Two Part should just be calcium chloride and baking soda and should be pure as possible. Don't see how trace elements would be in a "good" two part Recipe.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/
So where would one get trace elements in a pure two part system.

Even in a two part containing only sodium carbonate and calcium chloride, there will be other chemicals present. In my original recipe, the Dowflake provides lots of other chemicals, including quite a large amount of potassium (nearly an appropriately balancing amount, actually), as well as quite a few trace elements (although I've not tried to determine if they are actually added in more or less than balanced amounts, many certainly would be less, and some, such a bromide and lithium, might be more than a perfect balance would provide). The sodium carbonate and magnesium parts will also provide other elements as impurities. I've never tried to claim it was appropriately balanced for anything beyond the biggest concentration ions, however.

As an aside, a lot of people don't quite understand the two part concept, and this do not use it as intended. The magnesium part in my recipe, for example, is important to be added in a specific amount, not just because it provides the magnesium, but also the sulfate. Thus my recipe is approximately balanced for the ions sodium, chloride, sulfate, magnesium, potassium (when using Dowflake as I originally devised), and carbonate/bicarbonate. It is not intended to be balanced for trace elements, and I do not know which might be depelted and which might be added using a very simplistic recipe.

Also note that when I saw approximately balanced, that is all any product can do, either a two part or balling, because exactly what is taken up along with the calcium and alkalinity will vary depending on what is consuming it. Some corals use a lot higher proportion of magnesium relative to calcium for example, and so the specific demands will vary tank to tank. So one should not be too precise in exactly what is balanced and what is not.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Wow man Randy thank you for the info on esv that's all I use. I have a question for you I do water changes every Sunday and my mag is always at 1380-1400 so I never dose mag. I do dose brs 2part but no mag will this be a problem in the future ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Wow man Randy thank you for the info on esv that's all I use. I have a question for you I do water changes every Sunday and my mag is always at 1380-1400 so I never dose mag. I do dose brs 2part but no mag will this be a problem in the future ?

Water changes will help keep the sulfate to chloride ratio from getting too skewed. Craig Bingman shows that here:


Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems
http://web.archive.org/web/20010606...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/dec/bio/default.asp


Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride/Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges
http://web.archive.org/web/20010210...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/feb/bio/default.asp

There's also not much info on what detriments arise if it does get skewed.

Using the magnesium part of my 2/3part should help keep magnesium pretty much wherever it starts, rather than allowing it to rise or fall over time. People worry that it will just keep going up, but that's not generally the outcome. The actual added amount in terms of ppm magnesium per day is quite low.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Thank you for the reply will read the links when I get in.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Links are no good

 

[Jon Warner]

Well, in a two part like B-ionic, the balancing elements are added into one of the two or three parts used.

In the calcium part, you have:

chloride
calcium
magnesium
strontium
iron
chromium
copper
and basically anything that is not soluble at high pH or high carbonate or high sulfate

In the alkalinity part you have:

sodium
sulfate
carbonate
possibly bicarbonate
vanadate
and basically anything that is not soluble in high calcium and magnesium solutions

then in either part (depending on how you design it) you have

potassium
bromide
fluoride
borate
iodide
iodate
and anything else that is soluble in either part

That is the sort of thing that B-ionic would do to produce a product satisfying this claim of theirs:

" In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater. As a result, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System will help restore inorganic ions lost from protein skimming and help maintain the ionic balance of your aquarium water. "

http://www.esvco.com/products.html

What's that expression about what is old being new again?

There were multiple companies producing a "balanced" 2-Part system (CA plus ALK +minor and trace elements) since 1996.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Links are no good

They work for me, but if they do not work for you for some reason, try these. They have to come from the wayback machine since these articles are no longer kept online:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040203...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/dec/bio/default.asp

http://web.archive.org/web/20030418...twork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/feb/bio/default.asp

If those do not work for you, try entering these old direct links into the wayback machine:

https://archive.org/web/

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1998/dec/bio/default.asp
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/feb/bio/default.asp

 

[reefwiser]

the links work for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What's that expression about what is old being new again?

There were multiple companies producing a "balanced" 2-Part system (CA plus ALK +minor and trace elements) since 1996.

Quite true. I don't mean to ignore other brands. I just picked B-ionic as an example.

But your's certainly makes similar claims, and a good chemist can figure out appropriate recipes:

http://www.warnermarine.com/products/c-max-a/

"Warner Marine C-MAX is a 2-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement that adds both Calcium and Carbonate Alkalinity with major and minor elements by adding equal amounts of Part A and B."
"Crucially, C-MAX will not disrupt ionic balance and will replenish salts lost due to protein skimming. "
"Truly “Ionically Balanced” Formulation."

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Ok will try them from my PC

 

[Lou Ekus]

The key word being used here is "important" in relation to the major, minor and trace elements. In my opinion, unless you are supplying ALL of the components of clean ocean water, minus the sodium chloride, then it is fair to make the assumption that there is "some level" of ionic imbalance resulting from the sodium chloride created by the calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate addotion. We could go back and forth forever about whether the residual level of imbalance has any impact or not. But the imbalance must exist of we only add, what we consider to be, the "important" components and not ALL components. Adding just the important ones may indeed be sufficient functionally, but a residual imbalance, however small, still must be present.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion and understanding of the chemistry of this type of addition. Although I have been with Tropic Marin for almost 20 years, I am not a chemist and try my best to understand what my chemists in our lab explain to me. I'm always open to learning more about it. In this particular case, the chemistry makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The key word being used here is "important" in relation to the major, minor and trace elements. In my opinion, unless you are supplying ALL of the components of clean ocean water, minus the sodium chloride, then it is fair to make the assumption that there is "some level" of ionic imbalance resulting from the sodium chloride created by the calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate addotion. We could go back and forth forever about whether the residual level of imbalance has any impact or not. But the imbalance must exist of we only add, what we consider to be, the "important" components and not ALL components. Adding just the important ones may indeed be sufficient functionally, but a residual imbalance, however small, still must be present.

I have no idea what number of elements ESV or Warner marine or others add in a balanced fashion to their two part systems. I will agree that if they do not have some elements present in a balanced amount, it is not technically "perfectly" balanced.

As you expected I would, I will point out that less than 30 elements have any known positive biological function in any known organism, so the benefit of adding the other 40+ seems elusive. If ESV or Warner had asked me to advise what to do, I would have said that adding lead or tungsten or yttrium into the mix would have not been useful or desirable. Since these can only seemingly have negative roles (such as toxicity if elevated), I would have preferred them to be absent entirely if given the choice.

 

[rosshamsandwich]

Well, in a two part like B-ionic, the balancing elements are added into one of the two or three parts used.

In the calcium part, you have:

chlorided
strontium
iron
chromium
copper
and basically anything that is not soluble at high pH or high carbonate or high sulfate

In the alkalinity part you have:

sodium
sulfate
carbonate
possibly bicarbonate
vanadate
and basically anything that is not soluble in high calcium and magnesium solutions

then in either part (depending on how you design it) you have

potassium
bromide
fluoride
borate
iodide
iodate
and anything else that is soluble in either part

That is the sort of thing that B-ionic would do to produce a product satisfying this claim of theirs:

" In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater. As a result, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System will help restore inorganic ions lost from protein skimming and help maintain the ionic balance of your aquarium water. "

http://www.esvco.com/products.html

so if i use B-ionic, does it eliminate the need for water changes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

so if i use B-ionic, does it eliminate the need for water changes?

Hard to say. Some people don't do any.

Adding 1.1 dKH daily (plus the calcium part) for a year is similar to one ~32% water change

 

[nanomania]

Well, in a two part like B-ionic, the balancing elements are added into one of the two or three parts used.

In the calcium part, you have:

chloride
calcium
magnesium
strontium
iron
chromium
copper
and basically anything that is not soluble at high pH or high carbonate or high sulfate

In the alkalinity part you have:

sodium
sulfate
carbonate
possibly bicarbonate
vanadate
and basically anything that is not soluble in high calcium and magnesium solutions

then in either part (depending on how you design it) you have

potassium
bromide
fluoride
borate
iodide
iodate
and anything else that is soluble in either part

That is the sort of thing that B-ionic would do to produce a product satisfying this claim of theirs:

" In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System is also formulated to provide all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of synthetic seawater. As a result, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System will help restore inorganic ions lost from protein skimming and help maintain the ionic balance of your aquarium water. "

http://www.esvco.com/products.html

Isnt there any calculations on basic trace elements being absorbed in accordance to the ratio of cal/alk/mag. Iv been searching alot, many old threads have links, but the articles have been removed.

However im sure there is some sort of calculations. In my last thread on diy trace, here is the pic a fellow member posted.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Isnt there any calculations on basic trace elements being absorbed in accordance to the ratio of cal/alk/mag. Iv been searching alot, many old threads have links, but the articles have been removed.

However im sure there is some sort of calculations. In my last thread on diy trace, here is the pic a fellow member posted.

We keep going round and round. There cannot be any such fixed ratio for all reef tanks because some organisms use plenty of trace elements and essentially no calcium, alk or magnesium (e.g., macroalgae, microalgae, and many soft corals) and some use a lot of calcium/alk/magnesium, and not that much in the way of trace elements since they have a lot more skeleton than tissue.

 

[nanomania]

We keep going round and round. There cannot be any such fixed ratio for all reef tanks because some organisms use plenty of trace elements and essentially no calcium, alk or magnesium (e.g., macroalgae, microalgae, and many soft corals) and some use a lot of calcium/alk/magnesium, and not that much in the way of trace elements since they have a lot more skeleton than tissue.

SEE THE LIST BELOW FOR THE MAKE UP OF THE OCEAN:

Chloride- 55.03%

Sodium- 30.59%

Sulfate- 7.68%

Magnesium- 3.68%

Calcium- 1.18%

Potassium- 1.11%

Bicarbonate- 0.42%

Bromide- 0.19%

Borate- 0.08%

Strontium- 0.04%

Fluoride- 0.003%

Other- less than 0.001%

- By Carl Strohmeyer.

Shouldnt these be maintained like cal/mag/alk?

Other then the less than 0.001%

 

[road_runner]

...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

SEE THE LIST BELOW FOR THE MAKE UP OF THE OCEAN:

Chloride- 55.03%

Sodium- 30.59%

Sulfate- 7.68%

Magnesium- 3.68%

Calcium- 1.18%

Potassium- 1.11%

Bicarbonate- 0.42%

Bromide- 0.19%

Borate- 0.08%

Strontium- 0.04%

Fluoride- 0.003%

Other- less than 0.001%

- By Carl Strohmeyer.

Shouldnt these be maintained like cal/mag/alk?

Other then the less than 0.001%

The argument that they should be maintained at that level is a fine one (maybe not perfect, but certainly very good).

The issue is they do not deplete together. So dosing them together if they do not deplete together isn't going to maintain natural levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

just wanted to share some experience I have from using Redsea foundation elements with zeovit.
In the past my tanks (used to have 2 systems) where both on redsea programs (NOPOX, foundation and color).
so when I started my new system 2 years ago using zeovit, I kept using redsea foundations (alk,cal and mag).

for more than a year I have always felt that my Alk/CAL consumption did not make sense. I have 180G system packed full of SPS. been on zeovit for 2 years (started fresh with zeovit). colors were awesome but growth was not there.

One strange phenomena I had was: my tank rarely consume Cal, it only consume Alk. the tank required quite a lot of foundation B (alk) daily addition, but zero cal addition which meant zero foundation A need. always my cal value hover around 450-460(regardless of the system condition of PO4/NO3..etc).
first I thought it was due to my weekly water changes (cal from the WC was enough) but with experiments I ruled that out.

I always felt the redsea foundation B(alk) was adding something more than only alk that was either prohibiting my coral calcification (growth) or maybe even have some cal content in it that I never needed to add foundation A (cal) to the system.

then I someone recommended me to switch to B-Ionic and give it a try claiming that B-Ionic is more balanced.

so I stopped dosing redsea foundation and switched to B-Ionic. within one week I started seeing demand by my tank for Cal addition as my Cal started dropping below 450. then over 2 months my tank demand for both alk and cal start getting similar, meaning if I need to dose 40ml alk, I will need 40ml cal as well. finally my coral growth have exploded compared to the past, in one month I had more growth on my monti's, red planet, torts and millies than I have had over the last 6 months.

for some reason, redsea foundation was not doing it for me when I used it with zeo system. when I used redsea program these elements were perfect and no issues, but in conjunction with zeovit something was not right.
I think somwhow the red sea foundation B was buffering my alk and Cal at the same time in such a way that my coral did not consume cal...
I do not know why, I only know the results that I saw.

not sure what to make of this but wanted to share with you all.

FWIW, the Red Sea Foundation products are not designed for 1:1 dosing, and all tanks should use a lot more of the alk part than calcium. I have no idea why they would want to design it this way, but they did.