Balling to Kalk maths

[Myka]

I'm currently using Aquaforest Components 1+2+3+ and getting great results. I'm thinking I might drip kalk overnight from a kalk stirrer since pH is usually a sniff low. Just want to experiment...

In order to get similar results to using the all-in-three balling method of AF, I need to figure out how much Ca and alk the kalk adds in comparison to the Aquaforest as I need to make up correspondingly more concentrated balling elements to make up for the kalk adding only Ca and alk, and not any elements. Know what I mean?

Here is the info for the Components 1+2+3+...

Component 1+ contains: Ca, Mg, Sr, Ba, Co, Mn, Cu, Fe, Zn, Ni, Cr ( 50ml raises of 9 mg Ca/100 l and 0,6 mg Mg/100l ).
Component 2+ contains: NaHCO3, F, I ( 50ml raises the KH of 1,3 dkh-Alk 0,46 meg/l in 100l ).
Component 3+ contains: mineral salts and K, Bo.

So if I dose 1L kalk through the reactor, what volume of Components 1+2+3+ is that replacing?

This brings another thought...if I mix up Part 1 and 2 manually and add correspondingly more concentrated "elements", will I get unwanted precipitation? Part 1 is just Calcium chloride and RO/DI plus the elements (I'll leave Mg out), and Part 2 is Sodium bicarbonate and RO/DI plus the elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How much are you adding? 50 mL?

I don't understand the last question. You want to combine component 3 into 1 or 2?

 

[Myka]

How much are you adding? 50 mL?

I don't understand the last question. You want to combine component 3 into 1 or 2?

Doser right now is adding 36 mL of each per day.

Sorry, no that's not what I meant. Since kalk will be replacing part of my Part 1 and Part 2 I need to add more of the balling elements to Part 1 and Part 2 to make up for the kalk. Does that make it clear?

This is how the recipe normally looks:

CONTAINER 1:
Calcium chloride - Dissolve 50g in 1000ml of deionized water
Magnesium chloride - Add 10g ****** I'm going to dose MgChl/MgSO4 mix on 4th channel of doser because tank is low in sulfate******
Component A Strong - Add 5ml
Component B Strong - Add 5ml

CONTAINER 2:
Sodium bicarbonate - Dissolve 80g in 1000ml of deionized water *****I'm going to bake it to make Sodium carbonate******
Component C Strong - Add 5ml

CONTAINER 3:
Aquaforest Reef Mineral Salt - Dissolve 25g in 1000ml of deionized water
Component K Strong - Add 5ml

So if I replace 50% of my Ca and alk demand with kalk, then I would add 10 mL of the Components in Container 1 and 2, correct? I just don't know percentage-wise how much I will be replacing...what's the best way to figure that out? I'm concerned that if I add 10 mL instead of 5 mL that there may be precipitation. Container 3 will remain unchanged because the kalk won't be supplying anything in there...I think. Boy maybe I'm just making this too complicated...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Doser right now is adding 36 mL of each per day.

Sorry, no that's not what I meant. Since kalk will be replacing part of my Part 1 and Part 2 I need to add more of the balling elements to Part 1 and Part 2 to make up for the kalk. Does that make it clear?
.

Yes. I don't know if those elements are still needed (you need less trace elements with limewater than using a two part to keep them unchanged),but I understand what you are asking. IMO, I'd just watch and see if the other elements are beneficial or not by trial and error experimentation.

I'd really rather not spend the time to work through the math for this specific case. Do you know the amount of alk (in dKH per day or meq/L per day) or calcium (in ppm per day), it is easy to say how much limewater to use.

This calculator shows how much is needed:

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html

 

[Myka]

I'd really rather not spend the time to work through the math for this specific case. Do you know the amount of alk (in dKH per day or meq/L per day) or calcium (in ppm per day), it is easy to say how much limewater to use.

I don't off-hand, but I could work it out. No worries, I wasn't really asking for an actual number, just how to get to it. I don't mind doing the maths myself.

I'm just trying to figure out..."if I drip alk for 12 hours, how much ca and alk am I providing?" How do I figure this out? Is it safe to assume the stirrer is providing saturated kalk? Maybe I should just put saturated kalk on a dosing pump.

I think I figured it out anyway...I can use the reef calculator options to figure out the difference too. Apparently I just had to talk it out... Haha! Thanks!!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You figure it out by hand, or more easily, using the calculator I posted. It shows the boost to alk (and calcium) using limewater in any amount in any size tank.

 

[Myka]

Yes, got it. I didn't think to use the calculator in that fashion. Over the years I never used the calculator, but I've been finding more and more uses for it lately!

Just talking it out now then...

According to Aquaforest listed concentrations, "50ml raises the KH of 1,3 dkh-Alk 0,46 meg/l in 100l".

I'm using 36 mL per day, tank is 277L net (73 gal).
36 / 2.77 = 12.996 mL per 100 L.
Let's say 13 mL/100L.
50/13 = 3.85 times
1.3 / 3.85 = 0.338 dKH per day

0.81 L of saturated kalk = 0.34 dKH

So that covers the entire day's worth of alkalinity. If I want to supplement 50% of the demand with kalk since the tank is dark about 50% of the time, then 810 mL /2 = 405 mL per 12 hours.

So I'll hook up a doser pump for the kalk to drip 8 doses of 50 mL during the night hours. I'll adjust the Components 1+2+3+ to dose 1/2 their current dose during light hours only.

Problem solved!

My only question left is, is 400 mL kalkwasser over 12 hours enough to affect pH? Or rather, enough to affect the diurnal pH dip? Even 0.1 pH would be great. I'll calibrate my meter and get to work...

Thanks for supervising Randy!

 

[Myka]

According to this graph by Randy, raising alkalinity by 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) will raise pH from about 7.94 to 8.425 so about 0.485 pH.

If I am raising alkalinity by (0.34 /2) 0.17 dKH with kalkwasser...

2.8 / 0.17 = 16.47 times
0.485 / 16.47 = 0.029 pH

Hmm...that's fairly useless...maybe I am misunderstanding the graph. 400 mL of kalkwasser really isn't much though...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Adding 1.25% of the tank volume (1.25 l per 100 L) in saturated limewater instantly boosts the pH by about 0.6 pH units.

Spread out, the boost is less.

 

[Myka]

Adding 1.25% of the tank volume (1.25 l per 100 L) in saturated limewater instantly boosts the pH by about 0.6 pH units.

Spread out, the boost is less.

I was concerned about that latter part.

Ok, so I would be adding 0.14% of the tank volume. So that would be 0.19 pH units. Spread out over 12 hours, maybe 50% boost? Looks like an experiment is on the way... at least these numbers make it look worthwhile to try! I think maybe instead of (8) 50 mL doses, I'll add (4) 100 mL doses and try to time it just before and during the lowest pH point in the night.

I'm bored with the tank right now, so I'm experimenting... Thanks for playing along Randy. I'll report back.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm surprised that's the most you can dose.

 

[Myka]

I'm surprised that's the most you can dose.

Me too. It's 98% SPS, and getting fairly full as far as rock coverage, but it needs to grow in yet. (the frags in the front are getting kicked out)

 

[Kevin Junkin]

I'm interested in any results or developments you've had since you've been working on all this ^^^ I'm fairly new to the hobby (9 Months) and I've just recently starting the same dosing method with the 1,2,3 system and elements but still having trouble nailing down the exact doses I need in a day.

also in all honesty I'm a bit of a cheap a** and I've been manually dosing the days amount at once, could that cause any issues? I'm too cheap/broke to buy a dosing pump I was thinking about trying out an auto drip for my dosing with a syphon drip and some valves on containers with the 3 parts. dripping in a separate container to try to get the exact drip rate and final quantity of a 24 hour period.

any advice or criticism for a young cheap a** reefer?

 

[Myka]

@Kevin Junkin You can dose manually as long as demand isn't very high (eg. you're not dosing a lot in each dose).

I started working on it, but also started having issues with my tank regarding low nutrients since removing the fish for Ich treatment. Trying to hold my poop together in there while waiting for fish, so I abandoned the project until things settle down.