Battling Phosphates

[joro]

Hey R2R! I have a 400 gallon (total volume) system which has been running roughly 4 months very well; however, in the past few weeks I noticed a consistent stream of diatom algae build up (on sand, glass) that seemed to not go away despite constant water changes / sand siphoning / glass cleaning / etc. When I started to notice the increase, it was around the time we moved our last group of fish over (2 full-grown adult crosshatch triggers and 1 med size Powder Blue Tang) which occurred on October 7th.

I run the Zeovit system on my reef which is supposed to help control Nitrate/Phosphate but for some reason the Phosphate just continues to rise despite my best efforts. I've cut back the feeding of pellets to a small amount once a day and we already only feed frozen once a day. The triggers both hand fed, so I know their big, chunkier food bites are getting eaten but not sure about the broader group which consists of 11 other fish currently who are also aggressive eaters for the most part and seem to get most of the pieces.

Zeovit does not recommend running GFO so I'm trying to pinpoint the likely source that's causing it so I can adjust accordingly. Most sites - including this one - seem to indicate food is normally the culprit but outside of the pellets in the morning, I'm feeding 100% LRS Frozen which I believe is a little bit better than most of the foods out there.

Any thoughts / suggestions / ideas? I've noticed more recently the tips of some my acros are starting to turn white (and get algae on them), so I'm concerned without some quick action I may lose all of them. ;Nailbiting

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In the absence of using tap water or new dead rock loaded with phosphate, the source is foods. All foods have huge amounts of phosphate. Typical feeding adds 0.02 to 0.3 ppm per day.

 

[joro]

In the absence of using tap water or new dead rock loaded with phosphate, the source is foods. All foods have huge amounts of phosphate. Typical feeding adds 0.02 to 0.3 ppm per day.

So i did start 4 months ago with dry Marco Rock that I cured for almost a month in heated/circulating saltwater. Would it be unusual for it to be pretty much underdetectable for months and then suddenly spike/release?

I never realized there was so much phosphate potentially in the foods is there a way to reduce the phosphate content of say the frozen food (i believe some people recommend straining it before feeding)? Also is the phosphate content similar between frozen and pellet food (I typically feed the 3mm PE Mysis Pellets) or is one better/worse in that regard?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Phosphate is an integral component of many of the bio molecules of life, and you can’t really rinse them away (DNA, RNA, phospholipids, many proteins, ATP, ADP, etc.).

Some fresh or frozen foods in a grocery store may have additional phosphate added that might rinse away, but I don’t recommend rinsing in most cases because there is too much potential to wash away valuable nutrients such as potassium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I discuss many of these issue and show phosphate levels of foods here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

 

[joro]

So I'm a little over a week with the revised regime suggest over on the Zeo forums (and two additional 10% water changes) and Phosphate continues to rise (now at 0.36ppm vs 0.16ppm). I've also noticed the Nitrates have gone up from the last test and are now at 16ppm. I'm starting to lose some of healthiest SPS colonies I have, I'm at a loss for what to do. I've cut feeding by at least half and nothing seems to be reversing the course. Should I implement chemipure / GFO / or something similar to get it down in the meantime while we figure out what may be causing this? I'm going to test our RO water tonight just to make sure something's not getting through - I run a 6 stage with an additional DI stage, TDS is 0 and all the resin/pre-filters were replaced at last day of September (so, if anything, it should be at max efficiency).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm going to test our RO water tonight just to make sure something's not getting through - I run a 6 stage with an additional DI stage, TDS is 0 and all the resin/pre-filters were replaced at last day of September (so, if anything, it should be at max efficiency).

When you do, and if you see some, do not assume it is the primary source.

From my article linked above:

Comparison of Food Sources of Phosphate to Other Sources
What about other sources of phosphate, like the "crappy" RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let's assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

 

[jsker]

I run a AquaForest system and use GFO to keep my Phosphates in check. I have Tried the Zeovit CyanoClean, Bio Mate, and the Snow combo with the GFO off line. My final resolve was using ATM agent green with lanthanum Chloride to bring down my phosphates and and started to running GFO again. Some using it monthly, but also from reading, lanthanum Chloride use over a extended time is not good for your corals. I still use the product when my phosphates start creeping up. I do turn off the GFO reactor during use.

Like youself if tried to figure out what the source was, is it my food, rock, type of food, water source, etc. After changing foods, upgrading my RO/DI the systems phosphates were high. On recommendations I tried one product with the lanthanum chloride and it did a great job on bring down my phosphates over 4 or 5 doses and the phosphates have stayed in check.

I also started to run bio media in my sump and that has help out a bunch with the nitrates and a little with the phosphates. I started with Zeovit media, and the Zeovit helped out a lot, but I switch over to the Aquaforest life bio fil with a small amount of Zeomix and with the GFO nutrients are now under control.

If you are not checking with a Hanna Ultra low phosphorus checker, I would advised getting one to get a true reading of you phosphates. With algae present in the system consuming nutrients I was getting false/different readings (lower) from other tests.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If you are not checking with a Hanna Ultra low phosphorus checker, I would advised getting one to get a true reading of you phosphates. With algae present in the system consuming nutrients I was getting false/different readings (lower) from other tests.

Why do you think the readings were "false" and different with the Hanna checker?

 

[jsker]

Why do you think the readings were "false" and different with the Hanna checker?

I was fighting the Cyanobacteria wars and from what I was reading, testing with some of the kits on the market with algae present and consuming nutrients the reading was not correct and much higher than what the kit is showing. At a .113 with Hanna the kit that I was using at the time was showing a trace of phosphates. The reagents were within date/new

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was fighting the Cyanobacteria wars and from what I was reading, testing with some of the kits on the market with algae present and consuming nutrients the reading was not correct and much higher than what the kit is showing. At a .113 with Hanna the kit that I was using at the time was showing a trace of phosphates. The reagents were within date/new

While the whole "false" reading idea is incorrect, there's also no reason to think the Hanna is different as it uses the same chemical test method.

The reason people incorrectly think there is a false reading issue is that they assume that if nutrients are low, algae will not grow. It can be low just because algae is growing so well and taking up N and P as it grows, leaving a low level behind. A static measurement of phosphate concentration, for example, gives no indication of how much flux there is between the source of phosphate, through the water, and into the algae.

 

[joro]

So I checked a fresh batch last night off of the RODI system and I was getting 0 ppm on the Hanna Phosphate Low Range Checker and somewhere between 0 and 0.02 ppm on the Red Sea Phosphate Pro Kit (which my wife also viewed to make sure I wasn't misreading). Looks like GFO may be the solution in the short term, I'm going to place some in the filter socks right now since I don't have a reactor but should be able to have one online later this week. Is there a recommendation for how much to put in the filter socks on a ~400g system? Also, with the lanthanum chloride, is there a recommendation on how quickly to bring down the phosphates? I've heard in passing that even though it's not ideal, you still don't want to go from a high level to 0 in 24 hours.

 

[jsker]

While the whole "false" reading idea is incorrect, there's also no reason to think the Hanna is different as it uses the same chemical test method.

Try one of the Utl phosphorus checker out if you get a chance, It would be great to get your thought

The reason people incorrectly think there is a false reading issue is that they assume that if nutrients are low, algae will not grow. It can be low just because algae is growing so well and taking up N and P as it grows, leaving a low level behind. A static measurement of phosphate concentration, for example, gives no indication of how much flux there is between the source of phosphate, through the water, and into the algae.

I agree, you just say it soooo much better that I do

 

[jsker]

So I checked a fresh batch last night off of the RODI system and I was getting 0 ppm on the Hanna Phosphate Low Range Checker and somewhere between 0 and 0.02 ppm on the Red Sea Phosphate Pro Kit (which my wife also viewed to make sure I wasn't misreading). Looks like GFO may be the solution in the short term, I'm going to place some in the filter socks right now since I don't have a reactor but should be able to have one online later this week. Is there a recommendation for how much to put in the filter socks on a ~400g system? Also, with the lanthanum chloride, is there a recommendation on how quickly to bring down the phosphates? I've heard in passing that even though it's not ideal, you still don't want to go from a high level to 0 in 24 hours.

Dr. Farley @Randy Holmes-Farley would be better to answer the amounts to GFO to use, but I would start with two cups and see were you are at in two to three days.

depending on the dose of lanthanum chloride one can drop the phosphates by .05 in 24hr and I would not do more. Then 1/2 till you get were you need to be.

 

[joro]

So I've ordered the ATM Agenct Green (16 oz) via Amazon Same-Day and should have that in hand later today. Any suggestion on the GFO Reactor? I was looking at either the Avast Spyglass or Skimz (probably the 150).

 

[jsker]

So I've ordered the ATM Agenct Green (16 oz) via Amazon Same-Day and should have that in hand later today. Any suggestion on the GFO Reactor? I was looking at either the Avast Spyglass or Skimz (probably the 150).

I like the skimz reactor for the GFO

I got this one and use a DC pump link another link The pump they sell with it sound like a train, it is so loud. I would suggest the pump link for the skimz or whatever you decide to use.

 

[joro]

I ended up going with the large Avast Spyglass - seems to have good reviews here and on our local club. Both the reactor and High Capacity GFO should be here on Wednesday. The GFO I have on hand is just the normal variety by the way, I know that could have an effect on the amounts to fun in the filter socks temporarily.

 

[BigJohnny]

Start slow with that gfo or you will fry your acros for sure. I would get into some private messages with zeo experts on the zeo forum. It sounds to me like your bacterial population is not sufficient or your zeolites need to be replaced/use more or something. (I'm not a zeo expert at all)

 

[joro]

Start slow with that gfo or you will fry your acros for sure. I would get into some private messages with zeo experts on the zeo forum. It sounds to me like your bacterial population is not sufficient or your zeolites need to be replaced/use more or something. (I'm not a zeo expert at all)

Unfortunately in the last 24 hours my acros have almost all gone from beautiful colonies/frags to white sticks Noted though on taking it slow and I do have a separate thread/discussion ongoing with the Zeo Heads on that forum - they seem to be perplexed by it as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sorry to hear this.

High phosphate didn't likely cause it, but dropping phosphate too fast might possibly have done so.