Bean Animal Plumbing

[Syntax1235]

A few years ago I set up a bean-animal drain system for my 125 gallon tank with an internal box using 1.5" elbows into 1 inch bulkheads and expanding to 1.5" inch pipe to the sump. The system has worked fine for almost three years now. I'm powering the system with a Reeflo Snapper that Y's into two returns and a manifold, I estimate that I'm running about 1400gph after head loss. My gate valve on the main siphon is dialed down at least 3/4 of the way closed.

Now, I'm setting up a new tank, 180 gallons this time. I'm planning on purchasing a Modular Marine overflow. I'm torn between their 1800gph and 2400gph units... both units utilize 2 inch bulkheads to feed the external box and come stock with holes drilled for 1.5" bulkheads for plumbing leading to the sump. The only difference between the units is the surface skimming area... the internal skim box is 18" and 24" long respectively. 1.5" inch plumbing seems excessive. I'm not sure why I would want drains that large? Would I be better served to order a custom unit that has holes made for 1" bulkheads? Any thoughts and questions would be appreciated.

This would be my first external "ghost" overflow system. Is there a legitimate concern of flooding? I know my current system takes about 30 seconds or so to create the siphon, in that time the emergency kicks in a little.

 

[Reefing Madness]

 

[ReeferBob]

Personally I would not use an external box anymore. I used this once and regretted it. It is a flood/overflow point and it takes up unnecessary space behind the tank. I would drill three holes in the back of your tank for the Bean overflows and only use an internal box - probably a coast to coast to maximize surface skimming. Personally I'd go with a glass box but plastic is ok too. If plastic I think I'd use a fully enclosed internal box and seal it to the tank using the bulkhead instead of silicone. This is how Bean sets it up and it is a good design. As far as plumbing size, you will not get the flow you want with a single 1" drain. Going 1.5" gives you enough room to do whatever you want.

If your siphon is taking that long to start, I suspect that the drains in the sump are too far under water. It takes some time to overcome the pressure. Try going just an inch (or maybe even less) under the water. Your siphon will start much quicker. Without using an external box your chance of flooding is greatly reduced as well since your tank will be able to absorb water while the drains are equalizing. External boxes tend to lower the water level in the tank too far as well since the makers usually place them at the same level as the internal piece and they rarely fit over the tank rim.

 

[tech9]

Setting up my first ghost soon also, just drilled holes for it. The emergency drain should be enough to prevent a flood no matter what.

 

[Syntax1235]

Had anyone experienced flooding with an external overflow box? It is a legitimate concern?

 

[ReeferBob]

Had anyone experienced flooding with an external overflow box? It is a legitimate concern?

It won't happen as long as the external box is higher than the water level in the tank. But the external boxes of many makers (mine included) are poorly designed. They are at the same height as the internal box or slightly lower. With this design it is also very hard to get your water level at or above the tank trim. The external box needs to overlap the trim for the water level to be where it needs to be with this design. This only works if you use multiple gaskets or notch the trim. This is not accounted for in their design and you end up with a water level 1/4" - 1/2" below the trim.

There really is no need for an external box it does nothing functionally really. It is a place to hide plumbing and allow for a more narrow internal box. You can just as easily have the pipes connected directly to the bulkhead holes on the back of the tank though and use an internal box large enough for plumbing to fit.

 

[Syntax1235]

It won't happen as long as the external box is higher than the water level in the tank. But the external boxes of many makers (mine included) are poorly designed. They are at the same height as the internal box or slightly lower. With this design it is also very hard to get your water level at or above the tank trim. The external box needs to overlap the trim for the water level to be where it needs to be with this design. This only works if you use multiple gaskets or notch the trim. This is not accounted for in their design and you end up with a water level 1/4" - 1/2" below the trim.

There really is no need for an external box it does nothing functionally really. It is a place to hide plumbing and allow for a more narrow internal box. You can just as easily have the pipes connected directly to the bulkhead holes on the back of the tank though and use an internal box large enough for plumbing to fit.

You are making a lot of sense here... I notice the Modular Marine box is designed with the outer box lower than the internal skimmer.

I have to figure out how thin I can make my internal box to work with a standard bean animal plumbing design. I plan on using 1.5 inch drains.... I may be able to go 4 inches or a little thinner if I trim the end of the pvc 90 elbow that connects to the bulkhead... need to measure a few times to check clearances.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

It won't happen as long as the external box is higher than the water level in the tank. But the external boxes of many makers (mine included) are poorly designed. They are at the same height as the internal box or slightly lower. With this design it is also very hard to get your water level at or above the tank trim. The external box needs to overlap the trim for the water level to be where it needs to be with this design. This only works if you use multiple gaskets or notch the trim. This is not accounted for in their design and you end up with a water level 1/4" - 1/2" below the trim.

There really is no need for an external box it does nothing functionally really. It is a place to hide plumbing and allow for a more narrow internal box. You can just as easily have the pipes connected directly to the bulkhead holes on the back of the tank though and use an internal box large enough for plumbing to fit.

I'm struggling a bit to understand what you are trying to say here, my understanding is that the internal weir sets the water level height in the tank. Unless all 3 of your drain pipes in the external box clog (very unlikely with a BA drain) I can't see how its possible for it to overflow (even if it is lower than the internal box).

My external box and internal weir (both DIY) do more or less line up (the external box is probably lower by a couple of mm) but I have never gotten the water level to come close to overflowing and it would be no different if the external box was lower than the internal one as the internal one sets the height of the water in the tank and the external one only handles the flow coming over the top, so unless all the drains clog there shouldn't be any issues.

Syntax on my 180g I have a DIY thin profile weir and external box for the plumbing. I like it a lot having such a small profile in the tank. I also have a BA drain with 25mm (1") drains and have to restrict the main siphon by approx. 30% with my return pumping about 5x turnover per hour so 25mm drains are enough for me. If you are someone who likes a high flow sump then I would say you need the bigger drains. But you can always have 1.5" plumbing inside the box and then restrict it to 1", I don't think that alone is enough of a reason to get a custom drain. As far as length goes, I'm of the thought that the more surface skimming the better

 

[Syntax1235]

I'm struggling a bit to understand what you are trying to say here, my understanding is that the internal weir sets the water level height in the tank. Unless all 3 of your drain pipes in the external box clog (very unlikely with a BA drain) I can't see how its possible for it to overflow (even if it is lower than the internal box).

My external box and internal weir (both DIY) do more or less line up (the external box is probably lower by a couple of mm) but I have never gotten the water level to come close to overflowing and it would be no different if the external box was lower than the internal one as the internal one sets the height of the water in the tank and the external one only handles the flow coming over the top, so unless all the drains clog there shouldn't be any issues.

Syntax on my 180g I have a DIY thin profile weir and external box for the plumbing. I like it a lot having such a small profile in the tank. I also have a BA drain with 25mm (1") drains and have to restrict the main siphon by approx. 30% with my return pumping about 5x turnover per hour so 25mm drains are enough for me. If you are someone who likes a high flow sump then I would say you need the bigger drains. But you can always have 1.5" plumbing inside the box and then restrict it to 1", I don't think that alone is enough of a reason to get a custom drain. As far as length goes, I'm of the thought that the more surface skimming the better

Can you take a picture, or better yet a video of your system running. I'd really like to see it. Is your tank rimless?

 

[MaccaPopEye]

Can you take a picture, or better yet a video of your system running. I'd really like to see it. Is your tank rimless?

I'm at work right now so can't do a video but here are some pics I posted in another thread. You can see the max height the water gets when restarting and if I shut off the main siphon it's barely higher than that, if not the same.

1 change I would make with the drains is to lower the secondary drain a tiny bit and it doesn't need to be a durso style, 2x 90's like the main drain would do the same job (both the main drain and the secondary should have a small hole drilled in the top to help purge air).

And it's not a rimless tank, just standard bracing. The weir I have is actually very thin and very close to the top brace so I can't really get my hand in there (design error on my part). but I shouldn't need to anyway. I can get scrubbers and hoses in there to clean it if I have to.

Here is the view from the front:

From the top:

And a side-ish view

 

[All Mixed Up]

I have to agree with pop eye. The whole point of the external overflow box is to hide the plumbing. The plumbing won't allow the box to overflow on a properly setup BA drain. Even if the first siphon takes too long to start, the open pipe and emergency drain can handle the extra water until it creates the siphon.

I have run an external box for several years and never had an issue with the box overflowing. Not saying it can't happen, but it would take as lot of bad things happening at the same time to do so.

 

[ReeferBob]

I'm at work right now so can't do a video but here are some pics I posted in another thread. You can see the max height the water gets when restarting and if I shut off the main siphon it's barely higher than that, if not the same.

1 change I would make with the drains is to lower the secondary drain a tiny bit and it doesn't need to be a durso style, 2x 90's like the main drain would do the same job (both the main drain and the secondary should have a small hole drilled in the top to help purge air).

And it's not a rimless tank, just standard bracing. The weir I have is actually very thin and very close to the top brace so I can't really get my hand in there (design error on my part). but I shouldn't need to anyway. I can get scrubbers and hoses in there to clean it if I have to.

You're open channel should have the top hole tapped with a fitting and a tube that is just above the water line to allow it to go full siphon should your main drain stop flowing. Yours is a good example of a possible flood scenario with the way you have it set up. If your primary stops, I am not sure a durso and an open standpipe will be able to take on the flow that your full-siphon was before. You also mentioned having a hole on the top of your full-siphon. This also is a no-no as you want it to go full-siphon and not anywhere in between.

If you look at Bean's setup, there is no external box. The inside tank box only needs elbows attached to the bulkheads. It doesn't need to be super wide. The majority of the plumbing is still external.

I don't like there to even be a scenario where something has to happen (drains working) in order for there to be no flood. The external box being lower than the internal box does present this scenario. Will it happen? Maybe not, but the design is still very poor. The external box should be higher than the internal box. In this scenario, there is no chance of a flood out the external box from water just standing. And again I will point to the tank trim limiting where the external box can rest against the tank which in all cases I have seen lowers the display tank water level to below the trim.

 

[Syntax1235]

You're open channel should have the top hole tapped with a fitting and a tube that is just above the water line to allow it to go full siphon should your main drain stop flowing. Yours is a good example of a possible flood scenario with the way you have it set up. If your primary stops, I am not sure a durso and an open standpipe will be able to take on the flow that your full-siphon was before. You also mentioned having a hole on the top of your full-siphon. This also is a no-no as you want it to go full-siphon and not anywhere in between.

If you look at Bean's setup, there is no external box. The inside tank box only needs elbows attached to the bulkheads. It doesn't need to be super wide. The majority of the plumbing is still external.

I don't like there to even be a scenario where something has to happen (drains working) in order for there to be no flood. The external box being lower than the internal box does present this scenario. Will it happen? Maybe not, but the design is still very poor. The external box should be higher than the internal box. In this scenario, there is no chance of a flood out the external box from water just standing. And again I will point to the tank trim limiting where the external box can rest against the tank which in all cases I have seen lowers the display tank water level to below the trim.

Agreed, that is some kind of hybrid design.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

You're open channel should have the top hole tapped with a fitting and a tube that is just above the water line to allow it to go full siphon should your main drain stop flowing. Yours is a good example of a possible flood scenario with the way you have it set up. If your primary stops, I am not sure a durso and an open standpipe will be able to take on the flow that your full-siphon was before. You also mentioned having a hole on the top of your full-siphon. This also is a no-no as you want it to go full-siphon and not anywhere in between.

If you look at Bean's setup, there is no external box. The inside tank box only needs elbows attached to the bulkheads. It doesn't need to be super wide. The majority of the plumbing is still external.

I don't like there to even be a scenario where something has to happen (drains working) in order for there to be no flood. The external box being lower than the internal box does present this scenario. Will it happen? Maybe not, but the design is still very poor. The external box should be higher than the internal box. In this scenario, there is no chance of a flood out the external box from water just standing. And again I will point to the tank trim limiting where the external box can rest against the tank which in all cases I have seen lowers the display tank water level to below the trim.

I highly doubt it’s a possible flood scenario since I run a low flow sump only about 3-4000Lph so I do think the durso would handle it. But let’s say the durso can't handle absolutely all of the flow or even blocks, the emergency channel is low enough to be a secondary drain or an even worse case turn into a siphon well before the box over flows.

But as I said if I was doing it again I wouldn't use a durso for the secondary and would just have 2x 90s with a hole in the top the same as the main drain just a bit higher so it could still be below the emergency and siphon.

When designing my plumbing I was trying to copy two slightly different ways of doing the same drain and you are right I overlooked the tube which should be added for the way mine is set up on one hand I was copying a friend who has a tall enough external box that the durso gets completely covered and siphons (no tube) and at the same time was copying the Reef Synergy drains which just use 2x 90s (no tube), hence I didn’t even think of adding a tube to mine.

So thanks for the suggestion - I have seen so many of the internal box designs use that but didn't think about it in my case when it does still apply, so thanks for pointing that out, I'll get around to adding it sometime soon

I really suggest having a good look at the way Reef Synergy have designed the drains in their new shadow box. It is still a BA drain (siphon, secondary and emergency) Bean's original design wasn't to have the plumbing in an external box so they have changed the way things are set up slightly so it works better with an external box - but it is still a BA drain with the exact same functions.

One example is that putting a hole in the top of the full siphon might be a no-no with an internal box that has most of the plumbing external but with the plumbing in an external box you can (should) put a hole in the top of the full siphon to help it purge air and start up almost instantly and it doesn't impact the drains ability to siphon at all. Believe me it does run as a full siphon and not as anything in between - even with the hole. Same with the secondary drain, if done right (not like mine ) then a tube isn’t needed as in case of a blockage the whole drain covers with water (hole and all) and turns into a siphon.

Yes Bean's original design didn't have an external box, as far as I’m aware they weren't really a common thing back then. His drain style was an innovation when he came up with it and IMO off the shelf external boxes with "ghost" weirs have been an innovation since, it's silly to say no to external overflow boxes just because Bean didn't use one in his original design. I don't really have an issue with internal boxes but certainly don't think one is less safe than the other.

I fully understand your gripe about the boxes sometimes needing to sit lower due to the tank trim, I don’t know why but most tanks I see in Aus don’t have trim but I have seen pics of it happening on the forums and agree that is a design fault, but making the external box sit lower than the internal weir is a way of fixing or at least minimising that, it doesn’t make them any more of a risk.

Unless all 3 of your drains block (and you didn’t notice) an external box won’t overflow. Even with an internal box if all 3 of your drains blocked (and you didn’t notice) then the tank would STILL overflow unless your return chamber + ATO reservoir combined wouldn’t overflow your display which is most likely not the case for 90% of reefers out there, and from memory is why Bean came up with this drain in the first place as he didn’t feel comfortable knowing his tank would overflow if the 2 wet drains in a Herbie style drain got blocked.

 

[Merck]

Mama said, life is like a overflow box you never know what you gonna get.

 

[J-West]

It won't happen as long as the external box is higher than the water level in the tank. But the external boxes of many makers (mine included) are poorly designed. They are at the same height as the internal box or slightly lower. With this design it is also very hard to get your water level at or above the tank trim. The external box needs to overlap the trim for the water level to be where it needs to be with this design. This only works if you use multiple gaskets or notch the trim. This is not accounted for in their design and you end up with a water level 1/4" - 1/2" below the trim.

There really is no need for an external box it does nothing functionally really. It is a place to hide plumbing and allow for a more narrow internal box. You can just as easily have the pipes connected directly to the bulkhead holes on the back of the tank though and use an internal box large enough for plumbing to fit.

Is there an external box or particular brand you can recommend that you think is more fail safe than others ?

 

[ReeferBob]

Is there an external box or particular brand you can recommend that you think is more fail safe than others ?

I would not get a system with an external box again.

 

[J-West]

I would not get a system with an external box again.

Are you familiar with the Synergy Shadow Box ? I've heard only good things about that particular overflow box. Have you heard something different ?

 

[Bloody.Knuckles]

I have the Reef Synergy on my 150 and LOVE it!

If your beananimal set up is going to overflow and flood it will do it with an inside or an outside box... you may just have a few more minutes with an inside box if you're right there when it happens.

I have two 90s on the full and partial, partial has a small tube below the emergency to turn it full siphon.

I can post a pic tomorrow.

 

[ReeferBob]

Are you familiar with the Synergy Shadow Box ? I've heard only good things about that particular overflow box. Have you heard something different ?

No not familiar. Just in general, I will not use an external box. There is really no reason for them. Drill three holes in the back and use an internal box.