Bean animal questions.

[jpnegrete14]

Good afternoon. Very frustrated and could really use some help better understanding how to tune my bean animal system. 100gal ext with a 34gal sump running a varios 8 return pump using 1" hard plumbing. Switched from filter socks to clarisea roller mat which was working ok for about 2 weeks although the time it took for the main drain to prime again after pump shut off was steadily increasing and now it just wont do it at all. When I first installed the roller mat it took under 5mins to prime and then all the water levels would stabilize and the return pump would be completely submerged. Really want to figure out how to make this work because the filtration aspect is amazing. Don't want to go back to filter socks.

Basically everything will be running fine and then whenever I need to turn off the return pump i.e. to feed or maintenance I end up having to adjust a million things just to get the main drain primed again. And then the same problem happens the next time the pump is turned off and turned back on.

Can someone help me understand the effects of the following

• How does the increase and decrease of pump speed effect the priming capabilities of the drains
• Does the increase or decrease of the return pump have an effect on water levels in the sump and DT
• How does the gate valve on the main drain effect its ability to prime itself. From my understanding choking down on the valve should make it easier for it to create a siphon again. Is this correct
• Does the secondary drain need to be below the water level
• Could I put more of the load on the secondary drain

I've tried testing these things on my own but every time I think I have a concrete answer it seems to do the opposite some other time.
Maybe someone with a good understanding of physics and pumps can help me better understand these things. TIA

 

[lapin]

Can someone help me understand the effects of the following

• How does the increase and decrease of pump speed effect the priming capabilities of the drains
• Does the increase or decrease of the return pump have an effect on water levels in the sump and DT
• How does the gate valve on the main drain effect its ability to prime itself. From my understanding choking down on the valve should make it easier for it to create a siphon again. Is this correct
• Does the secondary drain need to be below the water level
• Could I put more of the load on the secondary drain

I need to know what you mean by "main drain to prime itself"
It should purge all the air in a few min if not sooner .

 

[jpnegrete14]

I need to know what you mean by "main drain to prime itself"
It should purge all the air in a few min if not sooner .

Thanks for replying. By priming I meant the main drain line being purged of all the air. I've continued troubleshooting and what is happening is the the return pump chamber water level drops below the return pump before it's able to create enough suction to purge the main drain of air, get water flowing back to the return pump chamber and close the loop.

The return chamber water level keeps dropping to the middle of the return pump inlet. Which of course makes it start sucking in air. Meanwhile the refugium section and filter fleece sections both have substantially higher water levels while the return pump labors and can't seem to create enough suction to get water in its chamber. I know its confusing so here is a video.

Return pump not working

youtube.com

 

[jpnegrete14]

what it looks like when it feels like working

Return pump working

youtube.com

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Thanks for replying. By priming I meant the main drain line being purged of all the air. I've continued troubleshooting and what is happening is the the return pump chamber water level drops below the return pump before it's able to create enough suction to purge the main drain of air, get water flowing back to the return pump chamber and close the loop.

The return chamber water level keeps dropping to the middle of the return pump inlet. Which of course makes it start sucking in air. Meanwhile the refugium section and filter fleece sections both have substantially higher water levels while the return pump labors and can't seem to create enough suction to get water in its chamber. I know its confusing so here is a video.

Return pump not working

youtube.com

What is lowdown between water transfer of your refugium and filter fleece sections, and water flowing into your return pump section? If the refuge is up high, it should be feeding your return pump section as fast as gravity flows. Do you have two dense of sponges between those two sections to allow water to flow quickly enough?

 

[jpnegrete14]

What is lowdown between water transfer of your refugium and filter fleece sections, and water flowing into your return pump section? If the refuge is up high, it should be feeding your return pump section as fast as gravity flows. Do you have two dense of sponges between those two sections to allow water to flow quickly enough?

I have a bag of carbon that only covers about 1/4 of the bubble trap between the fuge and return pump chamber

 

[Jon's Reef]

Your secondary is probably not low enough.

The primary should be as low as possible in the overflow. The secondary should be getting just a gentle trickle. The emergency should be dry. If the primary takes a second to get started, the secondary should be taking the flow which should keep the water going through the pump.

 

[Jon's Reef]

I can’t see the plumbing in the video, but only the main should go to the filter roller.

 

[malacoda]

A picture of the pipes in your overflow ... as well as the exit end in the sump ... would help.

The top 2 issues that cause trouble on the primary siphon in a bean animal are:

1. Not having an upside-down 'U' on it (e.g. two 90 degree elbows together, with the opening pointing down). May people try running just a straight vertical pipe ... but this makes it easy for air to get drawn into the siphon pipe making it difficult or even impossible to prime
2. Having the exit-end of the main siphon pipe extend more than 1" below the water level in the sump. This makes it difficult for the siphon to purge the air out of the pipe.

I couldn't see either the top of the siphon pipe or its exit-end in the sump to tell if either of these may be causing your problem.

If neither of those fits your situation ... it sounds like you need to open up the gate valve on the primary drain line more. Your siphon is letting enough volume through to the sump fast enough to match the return pump.

 

[jpnegrete14]

Thanks guys. Let me get some better pics for y’all. The main drain is going to the filter fleece line and the secondary and emergency are just going to the sump. Not to any filtration

 

[jpnegrete14]

There’s no more protein skimmer fyi. Here is the overflow box with the pump off.

 

[Jon's Reef]

Drop the main drain down further. Drill a hole in the top of the main drain. This will help with priming as it lets out the air. When the hole is submerged, the main will go full siphon.

The secondary looks a little high, but you don’t have much room to work with vertically.

 

[jpnegrete14]

Drop the main drain down further. Drill a hole in the top of the main drain. This will help with priming as it lets out the air. When the hole is submerged, the main will go full siphon.

The secondary looks a little high, but you don’t have much room to work with vertically.

You just read my mind. Was about to ask if the main drain elbow needed a hole drilled in the top. I will try these things when I have a chance thanks again.

 

[lapin]

If you could add more water to the sump so the return pump does not suck in air until flow gets to the return chamber this might help.
Depends on how much drain back you have with the pump off. You dont want to over flow the sump.

 

[jpnegrete14]

If you could add more water to the sump so the return pump does not suck in air until flow gets to the return chamber this might help.
Depends on how much drain back you have with the pump off. You dont want to over flow the sump.

I tried that with various levels of water and pump speeds. I would start with the pump off, let it drain all back into the sump, add half gallon incriments and then turn on the pump. Would only change either the water amount or pump speed not both at the same time. Adding more water did give the pump enough time to "close the loop" but now I' m running into a new problem.

When there is enough water to give the return pump sufficient time to get the water flowing back into the return pump chamber I am getting a lot of water going down my emergency drain.

I'm going to try @Jon's Reef suggestion with the overflow box drains in the next couple days and try and see if I can eliminate some 90 degree elbows in my plumbing. I think that in conjunction with playing with the water level should do the trick. I'll keep y'all updated. Happy reefing!

 

[malacoda]

Okay, you've did a great job setting up your BA — you've got an upside-down 'U' on the entry of both the main siphon and the secondary. That's good.

And no — DO NOT drill a hole in the elbow of the main siphon line. If you ever need to run your siphon at the high end of its operating range ... which may be what you need to do here to overcome the sump 'blockage' being caused by the roller fleece ... then even a small hole could allow a vortex to form above the pipe and suck air into your siphon line.

That's why so many people who use a straight pipe w/o an inverted 'U' on the top run into so many problems with priming and noise. Air gets suck in ... same has having a Vortech or Gyre on high and inch or two below your DT waterline.

It was working for you without any problem when you ran the filter socks, correct?

Since you plumbed your lines right and it worked before the roller was added, that narrows things down a lot...

The only other possibility I can think of is that the roller mat is slowing the flow through the sump more than the sock did ... to the point that water isn't getting to the return chamber fast enough to match the pull of the return pump.

That means you need to either...

a) open up your gate valve on the main siphon more ... in order to increase the flow into the sump. Or,
b) Dial down the flow of your return pump ... in order to slow the flow out of the sump

 

[Jon's Reef]

And no — DO NOT drill a hole in the elbow of the main siphon line. That will allow air to be pulled into the line which will break the siphon ... and slow down the main line even more. Not to mention it will also make it very gurgy and noisy.

Air will only be pulled in if the hole is too large and it is not submerged far enough. Hole only needs to be ~1/16"-1/8". The main siphon elbow should be well below the water line.

Without the hole the trapped air volume in the elbow needs to traverse the entire drain tube. Why the change after the filter roller? Likely has to do with the plumbing added from the original drain outlet to the filter roller trapping the air.

 

[Dburr1014]

Um, why the "u" on the secondary?
It seems to high in that first video. All your water is in the tank making the sump suck air. Would it be better just to open that pipe to where you want it? Should be just below the wier so you have a slight waterfall.
Tank water level in 2nd video is normal level. Way lower than the 1st video.

 

[malacoda]

Air will only be pulled in if the hole is too large and it is not submerged far enough. Hole only needs to be ~1/16"-1/8". The main siphon elbow should be well below the water line.

A BA shouldn't need a hole in the main line to bleed air. It also shouldn't need the siphon U to be more than 1/4 to 1/2" lower than the secondary. A siphon running at a decent flow rate should be able to purge the air easily . If air is getting trapped, then either the gate valve is closed too much (very weak siphon) ... or the exit end is too far below the sump water level for air to purge. Adding a bleed hole, putting 'T' lines of it near the exit, or other changes to the design add unnecessary variables ... and open the door for more potential problems to crop up. While a 1/16 to 1/8 bleed hole cause a problem. Maybe. Maybe not. But why add it if it isn't absolutely necessary?

Just my two cents ... and the way I run my own BA. I prefer to have fewer variables in a system rather than more.

Without the hole the trapped air volume in the elbow needs to traverse the entire drain tube. Why the change after the filter roller? Likely has to do with the plumbing added from the original drain outlet to the filter roller trapping the air.

Maybe I missing something, but I don't see any added plumbing in the pics off of the siphon line into the roller. If there is, and I'm just no seeing it, then yeah ... that is likely where the problem is.

If there isn't, then it still stands to reason that either the gate valve needs to be opened more ... or the return pump needs to slowed down.

Good luck OP.

 

[jpnegrete14]

Thanks for all the help guys. I tried a few different methods and what ended up working the best was removing a few 90° elbows on the main drain and increasing the water level.

When I first posted this thread I thought I had plumbed the roller mat with the least 90° elbows possible but I just had to get creative to get rid of a few and use 45° elbows where possible and it made all the difference.

Just for y’all’s future reference I did also try drilling a tiny hole in the main drain elbow (in the overflow box) to hep purge the air from the line but sure enough like @malacoda stated it didn’t work. Once the loop between the DT and sump was closed and everything seemed fine. The tiny hole on the main drain elbow would eventually start sucking air making a horrible sound. Happened every single time without fail. I’d say like 5-10mins after the loop was closed and everything was “fine”

went back to no hole on the main drain elbow. Made those adjustments I described earlier and now all is well. Thanks again for the help everyone! Sorry for the late reply