Besides Chaeto any other ways to lower PO4?

nbd13 · Jul 21, 2019

Long story short started my 150 SPS tank with chaeto, but it drove the nitrate and PO4 to 0 and 0.02 and got the dreaded Dino’s. Took the chaeto out, fed more and now my nitrate is 50 and PO4 at 0.31 (Salifert and Hanna ULR).

I lost 2 sps colonies during this...

Would like to not go back to chaeto since it gets everywhere and trimming it is a pain.

Wondering what everyone else is using to lower nitrate and PO4? Marine blocks?

Would like to get nitrate to 10 or so and PO4 to .05-.1 or so.

Thanks.

Hitman · Jul 21, 2019

Just adjust your light schedule with your Chaeto. I only run mine 8 hours. Other easy option is GFO

uhgster1 · Jul 21, 2019

What is the relationship between chaeto and dinos? I’m having the same issue.

SeaDweller · Jul 21, 2019

GFO, Rowaphos, lots of water changes, cut back lighting schedule on your chaeto

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

Po4 removers. I do not like GFO or some of the al based removers. My choice is rowaphos cause it doesnot only not leach elements like al and silica, it actually remove some of these elements as well as removing po4. Also when it reach capacity it will not dump back po4 to the system like in gfo where you need to make sure you remove the gfo once it's at capacity otherwise it will dump back the gfo if kept in the water.
Word of caution thu, rowaphos is very effective and quick. If used other than the instruction or of used more than the recomended dose it can strip your water from po4 conpletly or bing it down so fat it will shock the coral. So do not over dose it and use it as its described in the instructions exactly..

mfinn · Jul 21, 2019

Saw this a while back

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

mfinn said:
Saw this a while back

I think this is simply liquid gro of some sort...I think

nbd13 · Jul 21, 2019

uhgster1 said:
What is the relationship between chaeto and dinos? I’m having the same issue.

In my case it stripped the nutrients from the water and the ultra low nutrients caused the dino bloom as soon as I pulled the chaeto and feed more and skimmed more dry the Dino’s went away. Now my nutrients are creeping up and I don’t think my sps like it.

bluprntguy · Jul 21, 2019

Ohashimz said:
I do not like GFO or some of the al based removers. My choice is rowaphos...

From D+D’s description of their product: “RowaPhos is a patented, man made ferric hydroxide material” (aka GFO or granular ferric oxide)

It may be marginally better than other GFO’S, but it is generally operates the same. I’ve used it in the past and it works, much like every other GFO works.

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

bluprntguy said:
From D+D’s description of their product: “RowaPhos is a patented, man made ferric hydroxide material” (aka GFO or granular ferric oxide)

It may be marginally better than other GFO’S, but it is generally operates the same. I’ve used it in the past and it works, much like every other GFO works.

Rowaphos is ferric hydroxide material while gfo is Granular Ferric Oxide. I believe its diffrent than regular gfo in the market.
Regular gfo can and will leach elements while rowaphos will not even remove al.
Finally, gfo once it reach capacity, it will start dumping back po4 to the watwr that's why you need to change it once it reaches capacity. Rowaphos will not do that. When it reach capacity it will simply stop taking in po4 but will not dump it back.
This is from experince and from talking to vendors like BRS, D+D and monthly ICP tests over the years...

jda · Jul 21, 2019

GFO is the best for that level. The GFO it's self is safe, but if you use it too quickly to remove P, then it can cause issues. Most problems are with the application, not the product.

Lan Chloride works well with removing large hunks, but it stops being effective when there is not enough P in the water anymore to bind any floculant very quickly. At .31, you might be below this level. The stuff works awesome when there is a lot of po4.

There are no bacteria that will turn po4 into gas, like they do for no3. Marine Pure Blocks will not do anything.

Higher levels of P are poison to dinos. Same for N and diatoms. If you are low enough to not poison them, but not low enough to starve them a bit, then you get them. This is the same for coralline, which at higher levels of P will slow down and then stop. N and P are poison and death to all creatures at different levels, but also very necessary in low amount.

I would use the regular capacity GFO. Use a small amount and change it every day or two. ...like 1/2 a cup. Use a VERY SMALL flow rate like maybe a 5 gallons per hour. You want to see a gradual decline. The big issue is that people use a lot and the tank water level sharply goes down. Then, over the next day or two, the aragonite will release a bunch of P back into the water and then the level spikes back up. These up/down spikes are the problem over time. You want to remove the P so slowly that the rock/sand releases it at the same level which has a nice linear decline.

All of this said, I would still use the macro to get it in check and then prune it back significantly when you get to where you want to be.

bluprntguy · Jul 21, 2019

Ohashimz said:
Rowaphos is ferric hydroxide material while gfo is Granular Ferric Oxide. I believe its diffrent than regular gfo in the market.
Regular gfo can and will leach elements while rowaphos will not even remove al.
Finally, gfo once it reach capacity, it will start dumping back po4 to the watwr that's why you need to change it once it reaches capacity. Rowaphos will not do that. When it reach capacity it will simply stop taking in po4 but will not dump it back.
This is from experince and from talking to vendors like BRS, D+D and monthly ICP tests over the years...

“A variety of different materials go by the general description of iron oxide hydroxide. One version is frequently referred to as Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO), and that name will be used throughout this article unless something else specific is intended.”

“Recently, iron-based phosphate binding materials have become popular among reef aquarists... They are sold to aquarists under a variety of different brand names, including Phosban, Phosphate Killer, and Rowaphos.”

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

“GFO removes phosphate by molecular bond and will not leach them back into your water when exhausted.”

Your “opinion” directly contradicts everything I’ve read from Randy Holmes-Farley and Julian Sprung. There may be differences between brands of GFO, but they all basically work the same.

FWIW: D+D recommends that we use small amounts of rowaphos and change it out more often and they also say “Do not place it into water without surrounding it with filter wool”. Seems like a lot of work.

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

bluprntguy said:
“A variety of different materials go by the general description of iron oxide hydroxide. One version is frequently referred to as Granular Ferric Oxide (GFO), and that name will be used throughout this article unless something else specific is intended.”

“Recently, iron-based phosphate binding materials have become popular among reef aquarists... They are sold to aquarists under a variety of different brand names, including Phosban, Phosphate Killer, and Rowaphos.”

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

“GFO removes phosphate by molecular bond and will not leach them back into your water when exhausted.”

Your “opinion” directly contradicts everything I’ve read from Randy Holmes-Farley and Julian Sprung. There may be differences between brands of GFO, but they all basically work the same.

FWIW: D+D recommends that we use small amounts of rowaphos and change it out more often and they also say “Do not place it into water without surrounding it with filter wool”. Seems like a lot of work.

Yup.
Rowaphos is bit of pain when used ha ha.
Maybe I need more reading about gfo and rowaphos, I have done some reading in the past and remember I reached this conclusion..but point taken, will go back to the drawing board and get more info.
thanks for sharing

jda · Jul 21, 2019

Guys - this is tricky. It is true that GFO will not release P back into the water under most circumstances, it will certainly release some if the tank level of P gets lower. It will unbind back to an equilibrium in the water.

If you have an exhausted reactor of GFO on a tank, it will not release anything. If you change water and lower the water concentration by 50%, then the GFO will release and raise the tank water concentration.

GFO, Aluminum Oxide and Aragonite/Calcite will all do this. None of these binds are permanent. The only time that phosphate is "locked" is in living/growing aragonite where new skeleton has grown over some with phosphate that is bound.

Want to test this? Take some GFO off of your tank and let it circulate into a bucket of freshly mixed saltwater. The fresh mix should be at 0 ppb of phosphate (or else you have problems). Let that reactor work on that bucket for a few days and you will now have phosphate in the water.

Rowa is just high capacity GFO. Nothing else.

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

jda said:
Guys - this is tricky. It is true that GFO will not release P back into the water under most circumstances, it will certainly release some if the tank level of P gets lower. It will unbind back to an equilibrium in the water.

If you have an exhausted reactor of GFO on a tank, it will not release anything. If you change water and lower the water concentration by 50%, then the GFO will release and raise the tank water concentration.

GFO, Aluminum Oxide and Aragonite/Calcite will all do this. None of these binds are permanent. The only time that phosphate is "locked" is in living/growing aragonite where new skeleton has grown over some with phosphate that is bound.

Want to test this? Take some GFO off of your tank and let it circulate into a bucket of freshly mixed saltwater. The fresh mix should be at 0 ppb of phosphate (or else you have problems). Let that reactor work on that bucket for a few days and you will now have phosphate in the water.

Rowa is just high capacity GFO. Nothing else.

Thank you for this, I never understood how po4 can leach back, this make sense to me. Srsly thank you!

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

Maybe useful. Granted it might be biased but at least the rowaphos material in here should be ligit

RowaPhos - why waste your money? | D-D The Aquarium Solution

www.theaquariumsolution.com

jda · Jul 21, 2019

This is an except from a thread where I tested absorption rates of Phosphate in Aragonite:

Phosphate Absorption Rates in Aragonite

The more you add, the more will bind!

www.reef2reef.com

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

jda said:
This is an except from a thread where I tested absorption rates of Phosphate in Aragonite:

Phosphate Absorption Rates in Aragonite

The more you add, the more will bind!

www.reef2reef.com

This is actually great thread. So much informstions both scientific, anecdotal and experince that all useful to learn from and understand.
My sunday will go to this thread..great read.

road_runner · Jul 21, 2019

@jda, can you kindly help me with something here. I was going through the thread and my question is:
Does the concept or misconception that rowphos do not leach po4 back to water comes from the fact that rowaphos is high capacity compared to lower capacity gfo?