Best size for a beginner advice isn't right?

[Trever]

I'm about to get my tank wet, so from that stand point, I'm not qualified to address this topic, because I need a lot more experience. UPDATE: yes, I understand about water parameter stability- this is the first thing people explain to beginners. That's why I went with nearly 50 gallons total water.

So far though, I'm glad I did not buy as large a tank as I could afford. Combined with a 16 gallon sump, I like my 33 gallon cube DT as I've wrestled with getting it built and ready for water. It limits me in terms of live stock, but I'm pleasantly surprised with the fish list and corals I can look forward to. My single A360WE should light the tank very well (versus needing to buy more than one light), coral will "fill" the tank a lot faster than if it were larger, water changes and such will be very manageable, etc.. If everything works out, I could see being happy "forever" with this tank.

I wonder: is one of the reasons for the standard advice based on the fact that more than half of people leave the hobby after a year? Not to be overly cynical, but that statistic suggests the industry has an incentive to get as much money as possible right off the bat, because for more than half of the clientele, they have one chance to get your money. Therefore the advice to go large (as large as you can) has been propagated, since that extracts more money than if people went around saying "don't get anything larger than ~40 gallons of water total".

You could argue (I suppose) that while there's no way around that logic and reality, it's also true that the industry has incentive to make sure people succeed and stay in the hobby, so everyone is just giving good advice, and the industry has incentive to improve the longevity statistic as much as possible. I can't help thinking however, that regardless of tank size, the statistic has a lot more to do with tolerance for having any size tank and what it involves over time, ability to learn (there's a lot to learn!), etc. In other words, the intrinsic difficulties in having a salt water tank, human tendency to lose interest in something that first seemed interesting, etc.- regardless of size- there are unchangeable reasons why some people survive in the hobby past the first year, and many don't.

Again I'm naively speculating, but partly I've started to wonder about what I might do down the road if this tanks succeeds, so thinking about this topic.

Thoughts?

 

[BeltedCoyote]

The advice for going larger is simply because larger water volume = less drastic swings in parameters vs smaller volumes. By all means go with what you can afford. But the used market is what makes the larger starting water volume idea much easier to achieve. That and a lot of the big figures in this industry actively encourage people starting out to try looking for used equipment (reef news network, than from tidal gardens has mentioned it, etc) Heck, I got my 120g dt, a beefy metal stand, and a 40b for $250 from fb classifieds.

the industry is set up to make profit so it can survive and pay its employees. Are there some companies that are only on it for the money? Sure, but that’s the case with everything.

 

[Reef.]

Good points and makes sense coming from someone with a day 1 perspective, give it a few months and you’ll be wishing you went a little bigger.

I do agree with the point that a tank can be too big, especially for a beginner, whilst the general advice is bigger is easier on water parameters, so therefore more forgiving for a beginner, that is true but if it’s too big, It can easily become daunting to manage.

 

[Trever]

I should mention that at least where I live, the used market is a lost cause. I managed to find pukani rock on Craigslist, everything else around here is fresh water and/or people selling their used, unlaundered underwear for $5 more than they paid for it new. I've been watching for over half a year, and still watch, but used is the route I was hoping to go, to no avail.

 

[92Miata]

The advice for going larger is simply because larger water volume = less drastic swings in parameters vs smaller volumes.

I think that once you get up past about 50 gallons, this effect is negligible - and big tanks are just more work. My 10g, I really need to be careful with, but the 40g is a rock. Its not any less stable than the larger tanks I've maintained. On the larger tanks, a water change is a big deal unless you've built a giant mixing station. On the 40, its a 5g bucket in, a 5g bucket out.

(I also think a lot of this is because equipment is much better than it used to be - especially ATO units)

Combine that with the fact that larger tanks require way more financial investment, and newbies are way more likely to have proper equipment for a smaller tank, and way more likely to skrimp on equipment for a large tank.

My 40 has pretty much everything I could put on it aside from a high end controller (working on a Reef-Pi at the moment) - and I've probably got less money in it than buying a skimmer for a big tank.


@Trever - most of my equipment is out of the classifieds in this forum - skimmers, lights a couple pumps. Two ATOs.

 

[Trever]

@BeltedCoyote am hoping to do a Reef-Pi myself. This morning, a Kessil controller for 1/2 price turned up on Ebay, so controlling that is less important now since I bought the controller, but there will be other uses for a Reef-Pi, eventually.

 

[Reef.]

To be fair, the advice to a beginner is, yes bigger is better but that advice I would say is given because generally a beginner will be deciding between maybe something like a nano, a Red Sea 170 or 250, I don’t think many beginners are thinking of starting with a 100g tank, if they were, would probably get different advice.

 

[mitch91175]

I'm about to get my tank wet, so from that stand point, I'm not qualified to address this topic, because I need a lot more experience. UPDATE: yes, I understand about water parameter stability- this is the first thing people explain to beginners. That's why I went with nearly 50 gallons total water.

So far though, I'm glad I did not buy as large a tank as I could afford. Combined with a 16 gallon sump, I like my 33 gallon cube DT as I've wrestled with getting it built and ready for water. It limits me in terms of live stock, but I'm pleasantly surprised with the fish list and corals I can look forward to. My single A360WE should light the tank very well (versus needing to buy more than one light), coral will "fill" the tank a lot faster than if it were larger, water changes and such will be very manageable, etc.. If everything works out, I could see being happy "forever" with this tank.

I wonder: is one of the reasons for the standard advice based on the fact that more than half of people leave the hobby after a year? Not to be overly cynical, but that statistic suggests the industry has an incentive to get as much money as possible right off the bat, because for more than half of the clientele, they have one chance to get your money. Therefore the advice to go large (as large as you can) has been propagated, since that extracts more money than if people went around saying "don't get anything larger than ~40 gallons of water total".

You could argue (I suppose) that while there's no way around that logic and reality, it's also true that the industry has incentive to make sure people succeed and stay in the hobby, so everyone is just giving good advice, and the industry has incentive to improve the longevity statistic as much as possible. I can't help thinking however, that regardless of tank size, the statistic has a lot more to do with tolerance for having any size tank and what it involves over time, ability to learn (there's a lot to learn!), etc. In other words, the intrinsic difficulties in having a salt water tank, human tendency to lose interest in something that first seemed interesting, etc.- regardless of size- there are unchangeable reasons why some people survive in the hobby past the first year, and many don't.

Again I'm naively speculating, but partly I've started to wonder about what I might do down the road if this tanks succeeds, so thinking about this topic.

Thoughts?

The idea of going big or go home is more than a cash grab. If you get serious you’ll soon regret not getting a bigger tank. There are just so many options that you can add to a larger tank that you’ll outgrow a smaller tank much faster. Even faster if you can get the coral to grow.

Larger tanks are more forgiving. Not saying a properly setup small tank won’t work, but then you run into that limitation of amount of animals you can house.

When I got back into the hobby about 7 years ago I bought a 240g. Now it is at capacity and I’d like to add some other things but have no space. So it’s now upgrade time.

 

[BeltedCoyote]

I think that once you get up past about 50 gallons, this effect is negligible - and big tanks are just more work. My 10g, I really need to be careful with, but the 40g is a rock. Its not any less stable than the larger tanks I've maintained. On the larger tanks, a water change is a big deal unless you've built a giant mixing station. On the 40, its a 5g bucket in, a 5g bucket out.

(I also think a lot of this is because equipment is much better than it used to be - especially ATO units)

Combine that with the fact that larger tanks require way more financial investment, and newbies are way more likely to have proper equipment for a smaller tank, and way more likely to skrimp on equipment for a large tank.

My 40 has pretty much everything I could put on it aside from a high end controller (working on a Reef-Pi at the moment) - and I've probably got less money in it than buying a skimmer for a big tank.

Oh I have no doubt that’s true. And I really wasn’t trying to argue with OP. Just pointing out what I’ve always heard since diving in.

 

[92Miata]

I think something that gets missed in the "Just buy the big tank first" suggestions is that reef tanks are really a progressive process - a full tank with tons of corals runs way better than a tank with fresh live/dry rock - because corals are big nitrate/phosphate consumers.

So that 90->270 jump that someone makes is way easier than just setting up a 270 off the bat because they've got 100 lbs of really good mature live rock, and a whole bunch of corals, and fish, and already a pretty stable ecosystem - so they don't have nearly the same issues as just dropping 250 lbs of rock into a tank like that as a newbie would - with all the ugly phases and such.

I mean seriously - think about trying to deal with a GHA outbreak on 250 lbs of rock as a newbie. Its crushing.

 

[monti mike]

The advice for going larger is simply because larger water volume = less drastic swings in parameters vs smaller volumes. By all means go with what you can afford. But the used market is what makes the larger starting water volume idea much easier to achieve. That and a lot of the big figures in this industry actively encourage people starting out to try looking for used equipment (reef news network, than from tidal gardens has mentioned it, etc) Heck, I got my 120g dt, a beefy metal stand, and a 40b for $250 from fb classifieds.

the industry is set up to make profit so it can survive and pay its employees. Are there some companies that are only on it for the money? Sure, but that’s the case with everything.

Larger = more room for more coral!

 

[Trever]

@mitch91175 that's another of the standard arguments, and when I see some of those fish at my LFS that I can never have in a 33 gallon, I definitely get at least part of the argument!

However, I also think about having species tanks. Thus, more than one 33 gallon. This gives options it seems to me that aren't possible in one big kahuna, including backup if the sumps etc. are separate/isolated.

 

[BeltedCoyote]

@BeltedCoyote am hoping to do a Reef-Pi myself. This morning, a Kessil controller for 1/2 price turned up on Ebay, so controlling that is less important now since I bought the controller, but there will be other uses for a Reef-Pi, eventually.

Nice, I’m hoping to get a controller in the next year or so. But I’m not at all experienced with coding so Reef Pi is a bit beyond me as cool as it seems. I’m eying the upcoming coralvue hydros system and Neptune apex. Probably not going to actually pull the trigger until there are some actual hydros systems “in the wild” (so to speak) so I can see it’s pros and cons vs Neptune.

 

[Chibils]

I'm inclined to agree with 92Miata. It's sort of an outdated idea from when we had less equipment, less control, less redundancy. When I was told that 15 years ago getting into my first tank, it made sense. Controllers were high dollar equipment reserved for high end tanks; most people were using HoB skimmers and topping off by hand; most people just didn't know what we know now, or have the tools we have now. I don't want to make it sound like it was the stone age, but for the noobies who got churned in and out of the hobby in less than a year, it was solid advice.

 

[mitch91175]

@mitch91175 that's another of the standard arguments, and when I see some of those fish at my LFS that I can never have in a 33 gallon, I definitely get at least part of the argument!

However, I also think about having species tanks. Thus, more than one 33 gallon. This gives options it seems to me that aren't possible in one big kahuna.

Yes that is absolutely true that you can have numerous tanks. I think though that is different than someone that goes into the hobby determined to be successful and in it for many years to come that do not want multiple tank (at least they think not lol). Even then, if their desire is to get a smaller system, no one is forcing anyone to do anything lol.

But I've seen so many times people start out with a small tank and buy all new equipment for that tank, need to upgrade and that equipment is useless on the next sized tank, etc. Also have seen the reverse when someone invested a mint only to breakdown in less than 2 years.

There really isn't any requirement for the entry size of a tank. But if you have the financial means, determination, time, and space and more importantly desire you're better off getting a larger system because the upgrade bug will strike as long as you continue to remain in the hobby.

If you are setting up numerous small reefs that works too.

There is always someone that is willing to buy your equipment at a discount if you have decent stuff when you decide to leave the hobby,

 

[Mkus]

Not everyone can have a 100-200gal tank or even a 50 gal so nano is the only option the only times things can go bad fast is usually when a power outage occurs.
I’ve had a 14 gal now a 24 and do only water changes no skimmer all LPS coral going on 12 years tank has never had a problem or crash you just have to maintain a good cleaning schedule with water changes it’s not hard

 

[Darren in Tacoma]

Having a tank with a sump makes a big difference, too. I could never get good filtration with an AIO, mainly because the skimmers are so small. The added volume really helps, as has already been mentioned.
I also think larger tanks are easier once you get a good number of species in there. Hard to get rid of pests naturally if your tank is too small to accommodate a species that will rid them. Also more interesting to have symbiotic relationships between species, corraline eating urchins, things like that you can't get when you're limited on space.

 

[Darren in Tacoma]

Not everyone can have a 100-200gal tank or even a 50 gal so nano is the only option the only times things can go bad fast is usually when a power outage occurs.
I’ve had a 14 gal now a 24 and do only water changes no skimmer all LPS coral going on 12 years tank has never had a problem or crash you just have to maintain a good cleaning schedule with water changes it’s not hard

12 years is a long time for a tank like that. Nice job. I couldn't do it.

 

[thunderreefer]

Great question! I’ve thought a lot about this since I began. I’m new to the hobby (less than a year) and agree. I don’t think the advice is right in general. Can it be right for some, sure, for most, I don't think so. I heard the same, get as big a tank as you can afford. Go 100+ gallons if you can and get a sump to add more water volume in order to have stability and buy equipment once. I just looked and the beginner guide on this forum recommends 75g. I know these are all recommendations and have insight behind them; however in hindsight, I would have told myself and any other new hobbiest something different. At this point in my journey, I don’t think it’s good general advice for all new hobbiest or a good way to attract new people and keep more in the hobby. As soon as you recommend 75g plus with all the equipment and the overall size, how many people turn away and don’t even get started or get overwhelmed taking care of a larger tank? Is stability really the reason and is that even true? I completely believe the comment above about being able to maintain a 40b with rock solid parameters. I started a 20g with a HOB filter (uses filter floss, carbon and ceramic...for anyone new, this is all 3 types of filtration methods, mechanical, chemical and biological) and ATO and feel my parameters are solid. It’s simple...basic filtration, ATO and weekly water changes that are easily handled with a 5 gallon bucket. Still out of concern from everything I hear about stability on smaller systems, I test my water weekly, consistently. Great habit to develop. You can learn about different issues everyone has on a smaller scale and learn how to fix it (and how not to fix it ). What, no protein skimmer, refugium, algae scrubber, GFO reactor, pellets, calcium reactor, dosers, controller, etc. and it still works? Yep. Can I still add that stuff if my parameters and the appearance of my coral tell me I need additional filtration or add back elements sooner than the weekly water change? Absolutely. The other reason I hear/read, is “buy equipment once”. Is this really true? Is there really that much equipment you buy for a smaller ~20-40g system that can’t be used or repurposed if/when you upgrade? You can easily repurpose and use the smaller system as a frag tank, QT tank or hospital tank to support the larger system and use rock or other media to seed the new system. Anyone that has a 75+ gallon system, don’t you also have a smaller system on hand for one of these purposes? For a beginner, I’d say a 40b or an AIO in a similar range size is plenty big. You can still spend plenty of cash to fill up the smaller footprint with different coral and fish and have success. Down the road, if you decide you’re all in and want an upgrade, even if it’s the day after you bought the 40b, I don’t think you’ve lost anything and you can still benefit from and repurpose the tank to support the larger tank. If you’re all in from day one, go for it, get the 100g+ system. I’ll be excited for you! Chances are, you’ll also pick up a 20-40g, which I think is helpful for other new hobbiest to know. New hobbiest have a great stepping stone option that can be just as successful and has benefits in the future should they decide to upgrade.

 

[Trever]

@thunderreefer that's the other argument I forgot to mention, and a great one, seems to me.

When I first started researching, it immediately struck me: "Wait a minute... why do they talk about your first tank? Why does everyone say you have to quarantine and fail to mention you need TWO tanks to start!????" THAT DROVE ME UP A WALL, and I can't emphasize that enough. It raised all kinds of questions and made me question so much of what was being said.

As it stands, I have a 10 gallon quarantine tank and admittedly, that's a rounding error in terms of what it cost me compared to my other equipment. But I can't do much with it except quarantine a fish or two, hospital. I would need a light for it if I put frags in there for any length of time, then it's no longer a rounding error. So if I got a large tank one day, I'll want something like exactly what I have (33 cube/16 sump), I would think. The only question is whether I'll want separate water systems or combined thru one sump...

So it's difficult for me to see myself standing back in 6 months and thinking: "Gee, this was a total waste, now I'm gonna start all over going large". Maybe- if combined water systems...

Admittedly, the "no regrets" reasoning will be valid in my case for another set of reasons, namely that we are going to move in a year AND if I wanted my tank to be close by (versus down in the basement where we never are) in this first year, it couldn't be big because of weight concerns in this rented house. I will always know I could not have started with a bigger tank. This was also the right time to start; it didn't make sense to wait a year until after we move.

But I feel like what I have is a perfectly valid goldilocks size just by itself, no other considerations. And when I think about the learning and things I've already struggled with, I feel glad I didn't get something bigger. There are things I did that I now look at as misguided- mostly stemming from an early choice in stands that was an attempt to avoid a major expense (IMO, the 2x4 DYI's stands are too thick to be of a lot use underneath and therefore any effective, attractive and long term under tank stand is one of the major expenses- another thing no one talks much about when giving out initial advice). But size wise, I will be surprised if I later look back with huge regrets.