I've yet to see any proof from reading here or anywhere else that drip acclimation, QT, dipping, etc, have any proven benefits. You can't use any experience because you don't know that they fish/coral/etc wouldn't be just as fine doing it the "other way". The only thing I know is that after almost a year and 10 new fish/coral in 2 separate tanks, I haven't lost anything, and what I have added is growing and healthy. Personally I don't care what a book says is scientifically accurate. I've been told I should be wearing an anti-static wrist band working on computers for 25 years but I've never had a server or computer die because I didn't. I do know a couple people that have reverse polarity in their bodies and they short out keyboards left and right, so I'm not opposed to the .00000001% that could be relevant. Just not seeing anything that proves to me that I should be doing more. Why should I waist my time if the results are no different from the minimal I'm already doing with no casualties?
Best Way to De-Bag Fish?
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Lionfish Lair
Renee
You do realize the scientific books I speak of support us not acclimating the way we do, right? I don't acclimate either, I'm not sure if you caught that or not.
But I'm curious, what kind of proof would you be looking for in your first sentence? You said you don't care about scientific studies and data, so what would you be looking for?
But I'm curious, what kind of proof would you be looking for in your first sentence? You said you don't care about scientific studies and data, so what would you be looking for?
mtfish
Well-Known Member
Renee, thanks for all the reading! Anywhere in all of the articles does it say what kind of damage occurs with the way most people acclimate their fish when they get them? May be some of the harder to keep fish may not be so hard, just don't acclimate well. This could be one reason they refuse to eat, etc.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
It says everything,..... every system affected and how it's affected and by what.... I had no idea it was this well studied. But it makes sense, I guess. I'll put together some points I found interesting.
Some species don't acclimate at all, while others will to the same conditions. The variables were crazy and the ranges of tolerance are SO tight.
Basically I figure it's "do whatever makes you sleep better at night", because it's not going to make a difference either way, as far as acclimation is concerned.
Now, as far as sitting in ammonia during acclimation, that's another issue all together. As that pH goes up and up, the ammonia becomes more and more toxic....... the longer they are in there, the higher levels they will be exposed to (to a certain point, of course).
Some species don't acclimate at all, while others will to the same conditions. The variables were crazy and the ranges of tolerance are SO tight.
Basically I figure it's "do whatever makes you sleep better at night", because it's not going to make a difference either way, as far as acclimation is concerned.
Now, as far as sitting in ammonia during acclimation, that's another issue all together. As that pH goes up and up, the ammonia becomes more and more toxic....... the longer they are in there, the higher levels they will be exposed to (to a certain point, of course).
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Lionfish Lair
Renee
"The most abundant group of poikilotherms has adapted to variations in environmental temperature intermediate between the two extremes just discussed. These organisms exhibit compensation of rate functions over an intermediate time span (several weeks to a month)......"
"... after transfer, oxygen consumption and spontaneous locomotive activity were 80-90% acclimated within a week and fully acclimated by week 2."
[this was in reference to a fish that adapted easily, and wasn't the norm. Normal acclimation would therefore be longer than 2 weeks.]
"Measurements of oxygen consumption have been employed more than any other experimental parameter to monitor changes in metabolism associated with temperature acclimation. When poikilotherm is abruptly transferred from a warm to a cold environment, oxygen consumption drops immediately due t direct kinetic effect of temperature..... after a stabilized phase, which may be several hours or days in duration, the oxygen consumption rises as the animal begins to acclimate and eventually stabilizes at a value characteristic of the colder-acclimated state."
Prosser, L.C.A.H.R.J. (1974). Molecular mechanisms of temperature compensation in poikilotherms. Physiological Reviews, 54, 620
"... after transfer, oxygen consumption and spontaneous locomotive activity were 80-90% acclimated within a week and fully acclimated by week 2."
[this was in reference to a fish that adapted easily, and wasn't the norm. Normal acclimation would therefore be longer than 2 weeks.]
"Measurements of oxygen consumption have been employed more than any other experimental parameter to monitor changes in metabolism associated with temperature acclimation. When poikilotherm is abruptly transferred from a warm to a cold environment, oxygen consumption drops immediately due t direct kinetic effect of temperature..... after a stabilized phase, which may be several hours or days in duration, the oxygen consumption rises as the animal begins to acclimate and eventually stabilizes at a value characteristic of the colder-acclimated state."
Prosser, L.C.A.H.R.J. (1974). Molecular mechanisms of temperature compensation in poikilotherms. Physiological Reviews, 54, 620
robert
Valuable Member
The reason you float them is so the bags don't get cold while your attending to them individually - you don't want then sitting on the floor -
If you have ony one or a couple of bags - like the typical hobbiest does when he or she gets home - there is no advantage to floating...start whatever you acclimation process is going to be immediately.
If you have ony one or a couple of bags - like the typical hobbiest does when he or she gets home - there is no advantage to floating...start whatever you acclimation process is going to be immediately.
Just curious... why not? Prime is a great means to bind ammonia quickly in a situation such as this.
I enjoyed where you took this conversation, certainly wish more studies were done on ornamental fish. Alas, it's not where the $ is at
Lionfish Lair
Renee
I would rather take a bath in skunk juice than run my nostrils over an open bottle of Prime (et al). About eight years ago I cycled a 100g tank with tap water and prime...... I was wishing for a plateful of rotten snails instead. Ha!
It's difficult to dose an unknown volume of water. I am NOT a good guesstimater. What if I underdose and there's still harmful ammonia in there? If I dose too much, how will that effect the oxygen level? Will that push the O2 down further? If I run air to counterbalance the now low O2, will that then swing the pH up increasing the toxicity? They say it's safe up to like 5 times the recommended dose in an emergency. In my head, safe is safe.... why is it only recommended up to that level in an emergent situation? Why not all the time, any time? Because there's cons? If yes, what are they? If not, then why dose that much in an emergency situation only..... I just do not want to mess with that whole Do-si-do, if I don't have to. Where I don't think there are any benefits to our acclimation times, I don't see trying interventions just to keep them in the shipping water longer.
Ha!It's difficult to dose an unknown volume of water. I am NOT a good guesstimater. What if I underdose and there's still harmful ammonia in there? If I dose too much, how will that effect the oxygen level? Will that push the O2 down further? If I run air to counterbalance the now low O2, will that then swing the pH up increasing the toxicity? They say it's safe up to like 5 times the recommended dose in an emergency. In my head, safe is safe.... why is it only recommended up to that level in an emergent situation? Why not all the time, any time? Because there's cons? If yes, what are they? If not, then why dose that much in an emergency situation only..... I just do not want to mess with that whole Do-si-do, if I don't have to. Where I don't think there are any benefits to our acclimation times, I don't see trying interventions just to keep them in the shipping water longer.
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Just remember the ammonia is not in a toxic form until you open the bag....wouldn't a drop of ammonia lock or alpha be just as easy?I'm not saying for anyone to do what I do.... it's just what I do. But lemme give you some background as to why with 4 pictures.
The green vials are the shipping water and that's ammonia you're looking at. I did this with different companies at different times and it only occurs with shipping critters, not with bringing them home from the store. I started using those quick dip sticks after that. If there was any indication of ammonia, I would take them out immediately. If it was clear, I would acclimate a little.
The choices are:
- acclimate and burn gills in ammonia (increasing stress)
- bypass acclimation (increasing stress) and put them in beautiful water.
Both increase stress, but only one will leave permanent damage.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
Just curious... why not? Prime is a great means to bind ammonia quickly in a situation such as this.
I enjoyed where you took this conversation, certainly wish more studies were done on ornamental fish. Alas, it's not where the $ is at
Why not Prime or other ammonia reducing product? I was burned by using Prime. I went to a new LFS and purchased a few fish. Added Prime and began drip acclimating. Drip acclimated for 30 minutes and put them in my QT. All of them were dead within 3 hours. Why? I had no idea this LFS ran low levels of copper in their display systems. The Prime made the copper much more toxic and quickly killed the fish. I learned my lesson.
So what do I do?
I call ahead and try to match my QT salinity with the shipping water salinity. I always make sure I have some very concentrated salt water and some RODI to make quick adjustments.
I float for 15 to 20 minutes. While they are floating I will cut a small slot in the bag just large enough to draw a sample for my hydrometer to check salinity. I tape over the slot to minimize air exchange. I will make any adjustments to salinity that I need to while they are floating. I use a digital thermometer to verify the temp in the bag matches my tank through the same slit cut earlier. Once they are close I cut the top off the bag, dump the shipping water through a strainer to catch the fish, and dump the fish into my QT.
