BIG AND LOUD SALT COMPARISON THREAD

[GoVols]

Welp, I couldn't take it anymore.

So, I just ordered a box of the RPM and a two pack of "The Flipper" SS replacement blades from Premium Aquatics.

 

[rygh]

I currently use plain Instant Ocean.
Tweaked with a slight bit of extra magnesium.

My needs are a bit different, since I use constant-salt-water-exchange.
I have a 300G system and use quite a bit.

KEY: Salt must be able to sit in the storage tank for weeks/months.

A requirement I do not see in most threads : NO ORGANICS!
Because my salt mix sits for a while in the water exchange tank, any
organics would degrade to nitrates by the time water was used.
That eliminates quite a few brands that have things like "Amino Acids" added.

Other important reasons:
Cheap.
Very consistent from batch to batch.
Mixes clear, very little residue. (Especially if you mix extra Magnesium in first)

Downsides:
High Alk
Low-ish Calcium
Low-ish Magnesium

The Alk and Calcium are not really an issue for me.
I simply tweak the main dosers up/down to compensate. And since batches
are so consistent, no fiddling needed.
If I did not do constant water exchange, I can see that being a problem though.

Might be low Potassium as well, but so hard to measure with hobby kits.

 

[GoVols]

I currently use plain Instant Ocean.
Tweaked with a slight bit of extra magnesium.

My needs are a bit different, since I use constant-salt-water-exchange.
I have a 300G system and use quite a bit.

KEY: Salt must be able to sit in the storage tank for weeks/months.

A requirement I do not see in most threads : NO ORGANICS!
Because my salt mix sits for a while in the water exchange tank, any
organics would degrade to nitrates by the time water was used.
That eliminates quite a few brands that have things like "Amino Acids" added.

Other important reasons:
Cheap.
Very consistent from batch to batch.
Mixes clear, very little residue. (Especially if you mix extra Magnesium in first)

Downsides:
High Alk
Low-ish Calcium
Low-ish Magnesium

The Alk and Calcium are not really an issue for me.
I simply tweak the main dosers up/down to compensate. And since batches
are so consistent, no fiddling needed.
If I did not do constant water exchange, I can see that being a problem though.

Might be low Potassium as well, but so hard to measure with hobby kits.

+1
Did it for years too.

 

[mcarroll]

Rob,

Thanks for the feedback!!

A few more questions?

My ph is always 8.35 day (max at 7pm) and 8.26 at Night (low at 7pm).

Wow....folks here have seem to have a lot of trouble breaking 8.0....doing really well to break 8.1. (self included, so far as I've tested....no pH monitor)

Everyone runs a skimmer. Do you take any special steps to get that nice range?

Precipitation is definitely more likely at highe pH's though, so possibly a mixed blessing.

When I was running a tank really dense with stony corals, due to precipitation I kinda had to switch to plain baking soda for the CO2 boost during dosing.

Precipitation was mainly on heater and pump internals, and at the water line of the tank.

That does line up with a more typical precipitation profile.

I dosed NOPOX (carbon)

This is your cause of burt tips. I don't know anyone who can explain the mechanism scientifically yet, but corals in non-carbon dosed systems don't seem to have this happen.

but more importantly I place the bags back in the original salt bucket and close the lid, to its really at the same conditions as when I buy it.

Ah hah! That makes sense! And smart!!

The salt mixes completely and is at temp in an hour

Certainly there's nothing wrong with doing that when it works, but in general there's little or no need for heating and pumps really don't mix all that well. Remove them and you remove a source or precipitation during mixing too.

During my A Water Change A Day thread I did a boatload of testing on different mixing methods, including several pumps/pump positions. Post #30 was the first appearance. Here's where I decided: #273 Here's where I started recommending: #278 And here the video's begin: #301 #306 (There's some good discussion on and links to automatic water change systems in that thread too!)

I posted those videos of the best two, which was a top-mounted pump and a mixing paddle. Hand-power. Either one takes about five minutes – and I did a lot of water changes this way. Always had a positive response.

I still mix with the paddle even though I'm only doing (out of necessity) very infrequent 50% water changes now. Still nothing but good responses, although I've only done a couple so far this way. Won't be another for a while most likely.

Personally, I'd do away with the heater.....and for me the simplicity of the paddle won out over the pump. YMMV on that.

 

[GoVols]

@mcarroll

"This is your cause of burt tips. I don't know anyone who can explain the mechanism scientifically yet, but corals in non-carbon dosed systems don't seem to have this happen."

I have to agree to the above statement

I quit any form of carbon dosing a while back and my mixed reef is way more happier

I went back to (old school) means for phos and nitrate control + always have kept a low fish bio load in relation to tank size and this helps with PH too.

 

[Rob Lion]

Hey @mcarroll ,

Everyone runs a skimmer. Do you take any special steps to get that nice range?

Yes, I have a flexible tube running from my skimmer air intake through a hole in my window fame to the outside air, so it's drawing cleaner (less CO2) / cooler (more dense) air ... that can make as much as a 0.2 difference in pH. And in dosing 3 part, throughout daylight hours, i'm replenishing the drop in dkH with Alk as its consumed.

I have a Seneye Reef monitor, cost £100 (about $120) and measures ammonia , temp and pH and records them at 20 min intervals. It also deduces, Ammonium (NH4) , Oxygen (O2) and best of all it has a PAR/PUR/LUX/Kelvin meter !
Only bad thing is it needs to be cleaned well and a new "slide" every month , costs about £6 ($8).

This is your cause of burt tips. I don't know anyone who can explain the mechanism scientifically yet, but corals in non-carbon dosed systems don't seem to have this happen.

It's generally accepted / known that if you run any form of carbon dosing, you need to run a lower dkH. Well I say known, as a noob ofcourse I didn't know that! I think that's the only downfall of the Red Sea Reef Care Programme, however that said, I probably introduced SPS too soon (who doesn't) before the nutrients were under real control and carbon dosing was no longer needed.

Ah hah! That makes sense! And smart!!

My head isn't just a hat stand you know (well, not always :/ )

Certainly there's nothing wrong with doing that when it works, but in general there's little or no need for heating and pumps really don't mix all that well. Remove them and you remove a source or precipitation during mixing too.

Actually, don't forget that salt water gravity/ Specific Gravity is related to temperature!
If you increase the water temp, the Specific Gravity goes down (due to the water being less dense)! cool the water down the SG goes up (due to being more dense). You may not think this makes much difference, but I was surprised to find out it does!

Here is a salt water sample at 35 ppt Salinity..... at 15 oC it has a SG of 1.026 ... however at 26 oC it's SG is 1.023
On a 5% or 10% water change, granted that would only be a small change in overall tank water SG ( from 1.026 to 1.0257 ), but it is a change.... and stability is key to all. Uncorrected, the next water change would drop it another 0.0003... and so on.

As a side note, it's also (generally) quicker to mix salt water at a warmer temp too.. and the agitation over time allows the pH to increase too.... and adding water to the tank at it's same temperature all just helps a little to maintain stability and not shock the corals / fish and inmates

Pump / paddle / wave maker..... doesn't really matter to me, so long as the salts are all dissolved and mixed and pH has been given time to raise, I'd rather chuck a pump in to save the effort..... and if i'm doing that, I might as well chuck in a heater too

Also, I have never had an issue personally with precipitation while mixing a fresh salt water batch. Maybe because the salts I use are in balance (i.e. Mg is 3x Ca) and I wash out my mixing bucket afterwards, so their is no residual left before I use it again.

That's the great thing about this hobby, we can all do things in different ways and all still get great results....

 

[Lowstorm]

I've run the gambit of salt mixes.

My favorite was aqua vitro salinity, I'll likely buy that again. I started my tank this time with IO and bought a second box when I ran out of neomarine.

I loved the growth I got with salinity, can't remember the tests from back then though, just remember that the tank was spectacular! With them all I just dose kalkwasser, so nothing special

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks again for posting all that feedback!

You may not think this makes much difference, but I was surprised to find out it does!

I can say with uncharacteristic confidence that, in practice, it does not matter if your water is anything close to "room temperature". (Did you see how many water changes I logged in that thread doing it that way??? LOL Was a fun thread.)

Any difference was imperceptible in the final results. To be certain, I never had mysterious SG issues.

That's the great thing about this hobby, we can all do things in different ways and all still get great results....

There are always different wrinkles that go along with doing things one way vs the other, though! So differences are usually worthy of some consideration!

That corals rock and roll through differences like this is really a testament to the adaptability of corals more than anything else.

(If you're into reading, you might check out the research materials I've been collecting on the blog linked in my sig.)

 

[Rob Lion]

that is true IF the water is at room temp (say 21 oC), my freshly made RODI is about 10 oC or lower in winter and after an hour at room temp it only reaches about 15-16 oC. Even at room temp (21 oC) that's a 6 oC differential to tank temp to me... according to that chart, that equates to my tank being 1.0258 instead of the 1.026, agreed not much on a 10% wc and not noticeable probably with a refractometer, but will add up over time, after 5 weeks my tank would be at 1.025 instead of 1.026 SG @ 27 oC.

More importantly, if i dump 21 oC water into my tank in a wc, my SPS close up for an hour, of course they recover without question.... but that wastes 20% of their growth potential for the day

We all have different beliefs, some take do things precisely, others not so much, some don't do water changes, some don't dose trace elements, and we all use different water parameters.... so long as we have great healthy tanks we are all winners

 

[Newb73]

PH problems are easier to solve.

I dose in alk 45 seconds every 15 minutes from 11p to 7a.

I run a C02 scrubber on my skimmer in winter

 

[Klwheat]

CO2 scrubber on my skimmer had also helped pH immensely. 7.7-7.9 workout. 8.1-8.3 with.

 

[Newb73]

And my water gets mixed with 2 or 3 pumps and temp matched to a perfect 78 degrees...40 gallons at a time.

As i said, i mostly just test and dose the instant ocean for calcium to around 430 prior to doin the water change and then AFTER rhe water change i test and dise the whole tank for mg to about 1350

 

[AlexG]

I have used instant ocean, reef crystals, and ESV salt. I have never had issues with any of these salts throughout the years but I have never switched between salts after a tank is established. I am definitely debating what salt to use for my new system since I need to purchase around 2000 gallons worth of salt mix to fill and give me a small reserve of salt for water changes. At that volume the price adds up fast so I am interested to see what is said on this discussion.

 

[Rob Lion]

Another thing I do to try to promote stability is when I do my water changes, I take 1 litre of fresh salt water and add it to my ATO container and then fill up the ATO with RODI!!!

My 250L tank loses about 30L of water a week in evaporation. (rimless, no cover)

why? because over the week I remove water to do water testing and to cover the salt water my skimmer removes.... all in all about 1 litre a week..... just another thing to help add stability to my system...

 

[Tautog]

I was born and breed on RC.....and I can't remember why....probably because it was what the LFS was pushing at the time. I used this for a number of years, collecting many plastic 5 gallon buckets, while I learned about saltwater aquariums, dosing, testing and water parameters. In the mean time, I became discouraged about the deposits in the mixing bucket and the ups and downs of parameters within the tank.




As I became educated, I eventually came to the conclusion that all I want on a water change is ocean water.....ca 400 calcium, 7 dKH, and 1300 magnesium. What was closest to this that was inexpensive and readily available was plain old Instant Ocean. 200 gallon boxes came out and that is what I use now.....no more plastic buckets.

I live next to the ocean, albeit in New Jersey, and a stones throw from NYC, but I've now been kicking around the idea of collecting ocean water for water changes. Just need to figure out current levels and the logistics of collecting this water.

I collect, it started with a Black Seahorse and some gobies. Still have everything for over a year, collected last winter. Basic set up, as in " fresh water " , just fill up by a area with moving water, as close to a inlet as possible. I collect grass shrimp all year to feed the fish. No heat, ever. 2 basic 75, and 90 gal. filters, change a filter pad every 4 months. No power heads. 1 air stone. 60 gal. Tank. 20 gal./WC - Every 2-3 weeks. No special lights. No skimmer. Doesn't get any cheaper! Collect with a killie trap or net.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

By the way, for those of you interested in trying RPM, apparently you can get 1 box of RPM salt from premium aquatics on ebay...with free shipping (you need to buy more than just the box of salt to qualify for free shipping if bought from their website). Here's the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FritzPRO-RP...326318?hash=item51f0eba62e:g:gocAAOSwEzxYU1lz

You're welcome.

 

[James Kanouff]

Wow funny how so many things I have always suspected in my salt mix seem to be happening to other folks.
I like parameters of 8.5-9.0 dkh, 440 ca, 1300 mg, 400+ K, zero p04, 1-2 no3, in my reef systems.
I use saturated Kalk in all my systems for ato. I have been able to grow everything in various areas in various tanks relative to light flow and nutrients in said tanks. I feed average or light. I over skim. I run Bare bottom on all but one system. I would say i have been very successful over the last five years or so in Sw.
I think what I can add to this and take away from this is as follows>
I have crap on the bottom of the barrel after nearly every IORC batch and its parameters are not very close to what I like to keep meaning I must do small changes at a time "5-10% seems to never be an issue". I have seen cyano start up for no good reason and suspect the salt mix over the last few months!
RSCP =I have had no real consistency issues or other issues and its my current favorite, but it does sour fast in a barrel severals days or more and typically has pretty high numbers as well meaning again no large water changes all at once. At the end of my automatic water change 4 month supply much of it is all precipitated out onto the bottom of the barrel and leads me to consider a more standard levels salt or cutting it with there plain version salt.
I have not used enough other salts to honestly say what happens with them over time.
I wish I could find a consistent salt that had good quality control and reasonable parameters suitable for 25-50% water changes in an emergency. or worse yet 100% with no weird additives to create more variables.
I suspect everything put into salt mixes as "boosters" falls out in 24 hours or less. vitamins, probiotics, and boosted ALK and Ca lvls.
Stability matters most in nearly every factor of reefing.
Having to mess around to make the salt mix the way I want it is a way of life for me still.
The mix you would use for auto water change systems and the mix you would use for 25% or larger water changes is different than a mix you would want for weekly recommended average reefer 10% changes. Which can pretty much just lead to plain easy success with less hassle than with a bunch of other lil things that come with less frequent water changes or mass changes.
I will never do more than a 25 % water change till I find a better solution because I know what the result will be and it ain't good.
I wish they told us more about what they put into the mix or what they are sure is not in it.

 

[GoVols]

I've run the gambit of salt mixes.

My favorite was aqua vitro salinity, I'll likely buy that again. I started my tank this time with IO and bought a second box when I ran out of neomarine.

I loved the growth I got with salinity, can't remember the tests from back then though, just remember that the tank was spectacular! With them all I just dose kalkwasser, so nothing special

Salinity is a great salt mix. Used it for 2 years. Miss that little burn (lol)
It's so consecrated, you really need to follow Seachem's mixing instructions and use ASAP so the Alk doesn't drop.
My lfs just kept raising the price. They sale the 225 gallon bucket for $99.00 + tax, now.
They gray residue never bothered me either. I always loved the 1/2 cup per gallon makes SG at 1.026.

Over the years my reef runs better at parameters above (NSW)

 

[GoVols]

that is true IF the water is at room temp (say 21 oC), my freshly made RODI is about 10 oC or lower in winter and after an hour at room temp it only reaches about 15-16 oC. Even at room temp (21 oC) that's a 6 oC differential to tank temp to me... according to that chart, that equates to my tank being 1.0258 instead of the 1.026, agreed not much on a 10% wc and not noticeable probably with a refractometer, but will add up over time, after 5 weeks my tank would be at 1.025 instead of 1.026 SG @ 27 oC.

More importantly, if i dump 21 oC water into my tank in a wc, my SPS close up for an hour, of course they recover without question.... but that wastes 20% of their growth potential for the day

We all have different beliefs, some take do things precisely, others not so much, some don't do water changes, some don't dose trace elements, and we all use different water parameters.... so long as we have great healthy tanks we are all winners

I've been running the Red Sea "Coral Colors Program" those trace elements have made a big difference in my coral health and color.

 

[Newb73]

When ever my nitrates get very low, which is rare..ill shut off my skimmer a couple days and dose my tank with red sea reef energy but i do not do daily doses as they recommend.