Bio Pellets or Vodka?

[reefknight]

I'm on the fence about carbon dosing to reduce nutrients and micro algae in my system. I have been reading and researching for quite sometime and both have there pros and cons, as does everything in the hobby.
Let me begin by introducing the system; 185g display w/ 50g breeder sump. Approximately 180lbs of premium live rock. (Fiji, Pukani and Totoka). There is also about 80lbs of live sand, varying size from sugar grain to 2mm. Display has been set up for 5yrs. Skimmer is Vertex Alpha 200, cleaned weekly, dark thick skimmate, approx. 1qt of fluid. Media reactors for carbon (F&S pelletized carbon & GFO). GFO is usually Rowaphos. I swapped to high capacity BRS and it let my PO4 reach 0.25 at the end of May. Since I have been struggling to bring it back down. I was unable to get my preferred GFO so I did try Aquavitro Phosfiltrum. It has brought the level down significantly. Water changes are performed weekly at a 10% rate. Reef Crystals has been the only salt used in the past two years. I tried a couple of others and went back. I dose BRS 3 part at a rate of 100ml/ day. (As of today the Mg was just raised due to low level). Make up water matches or is within close range of tank readings. Only exception lately is has been temp.

Parameters as of last night; Salinity 35ppt, Alk 9.4dKh, Ca 420ppm, Mg 1250ppm, PO4 0.06, NO3 5ppm, pH 8.01. (pH has always remained low. The house is rather new and is tight and traps CO2. I stopped chasing this number years ago as I spent a fortune doing so.)

Display has plenty of circulation as there are 4 Vortech MP40's controlled via an Apex that randomize programs throughout the day. Overflow is situated in the middle of the rear pane of glass. One Vortech on each side of it and one on each end pane of glass. Return is T'd off to the reactors and is an Ehiem 1262 and has dual returns to tank. Dual drains from tank to sump.

I have 6" Magnificent Foxface, 3.5" Fowler's Surgeon, Golden Dwarf Angel,male Lineatus & Hooded wrasses, Canary wrasse, juvenile Potter's Leopard wrasse, male Bartlett Anthias, 4 female Lyretail Anthias, pair of Darwin Ocellaris Clowns and a Mandarin Dragonet. Typically with the species list that I have I feed pellets once a day in the morning. Either a New Era Grazer or a sheet of nori is added at that time, then in the evening frozen food is used. Mysis, brine, Rod's whatever I have or can get. If it is a stand alone product it is rinsed. Rod's, Rogger's, etc is not. Sometimes vitamin supplements or garlic is added. About the equivalent of two cubes is fed, but is spooned into the tank as they eat it.

What Ihave is the constant rate of 5ppm of NO3 for over the past 3 months and the inability to get my PO4 back below 0.03 regardless of water changes or media changes. I also have a dusting of diatoms on my sand bed as well as a bit of cyano that refuses to go away. I have tried to use a couple treatments of KZ Coral Snow/ Zeozyme & MB7 and it will help reduce it for a day or so. ( Does make the water really clear though!)But it returns and then there is always the persistent diatom on the glass panes. I have gotten it down from everyday to every other day now.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Carbon dosing is a good way to reduce nutrients, especially nitrate. I prefer soluble organics for a variety of reasons, including the ability to change the dose more easily than with pellets. I use vinegar.

That said, if he goal is reducing the microalgae, more frequent replacement of the GFO may be more successful at limiting its growth.

 

[reefknight]

Thank you for taking a moment to reply Randy, it's greatly appreciated. I know form researching that you favor soluble carbon dosing and have read the reasons that you support it. Can't discount those at all.

In my situation, my goal is rather dual purposed. To lower both the PO4 and NO3 levels for the system, hence as a result I should notice a vast reduction in cyano and diatoms. So would would you suggest to begin more frequent changes in GFO and also carbon dosing? Also with dosing vinegar instead of vodka, do you follow the same guidelines and chart that was published in Reefkeeping 8/2008?

 

[theturk]

I'm on the fence about carbon dosing to reduce nutrients and micro algae in my system. I have been reading and researching for quite sometime and both have there pros and cons, as does everything in the hobby.
Let me begin by introducing the system; 185g display w/ 50g breeder sump. Approximately 180lbs of premium live rock. (Fiji, Pukani and Totoka). There is also about 80lbs of live sand, varying size from sugar grain to 2mm. Display has been set up for 5yrs. Skimmer is Vertex Alpha 200, cleaned weekly, dark thick skimmate, approx. 1qt of fluid. Media reactors for carbon (F&S pelletized carbon & GFO). GFO is usually Rowaphos. I swapped to high capacity BRS and it let my PO4 reach 0.25 at the end of May. Since I have been struggling to bring it back down. I was unable to get my preferred GFO so I did try Aquavitro Phosfiltrum. It has brought the level down significantly. Water changes are performed weekly at a 10% rate. Reef Crystals has been the only salt used in the past two years. I tried a couple of others and went back. I dose BRS 3 part at a rate of 100ml/ day. (As of today the Mg was just raised due to low level). Make up water matches or is within close range of tank readings. Only exception lately is has been temp.

Parameters as of last night; Salinity 35ppt, Alk 9.4dKh, Ca 420ppm, Mg 1250ppm, PO4 0.06, NO3 5ppm, pH 8.01. (pH has always remained low. The house is rather new and is tight and traps CO2. I stopped chasing this number years ago as I spent a fortune doing so.)

Display has plenty of circulation as there are 4 Vortech MP40's controlled via an Apex that randomize programs throughout the day. Overflow is situated in the middle of the rear pane of glass. One Vortech on each side of it and one on each end pane of glass. Return is T'd off to the reactors and is an Ehiem 1262 and has dual returns to tank. Dual drains from tank to sump.

I have 6" Magnificent Foxface, 3.5" Fowler's Surgeon, Golden Dwarf Angel,male Lineatus & Hooded wrasses, Canary wrasse, juvenile Potter's Leopard wrasse, male Bartlett Anthias, 4 female Lyretail Anthias, pair of Darwin Ocellaris Clowns and a Mandarin Dragonet. Typically with the species list that I have I feed pellets once a day in the morning. Either a New Era Grazer or a sheet of nori is added at that time, then in the evening frozen food is used. Mysis, brine, Rod's whatever I have or can get. If it is a stand alone product it is rinsed. Rod's, Rogger's, etc is not. Sometimes vitamin supplements or garlic is added. About the equivalent of two cubes is fed, but is spooned into the tank as they eat it.

What Ihave is the constant rate of 5ppm of NO3 for over the past 3 months and the inability to get my PO4 back below 0.03 regardless of water changes or media changes. I also have a dusting of diatoms on my sand bed as well as a bit of cyano that refuses to go away. I have tried to use a couple treatments of KZ Coral Snow/ Zeozyme & MB7 and it will help reduce it for a day or so. ( Does make the water really clear though!)But it returns and then there is always the persistent diatom on the glass panes. I have gotten it down from everyday to every other day now.

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

following

 

[Jon Warner]

I'm on the other side of the fence here...

I don't even like to call bio-pellets "Carbon dosing".

"Dosing" implies adding something to the water which in theory, bio-pellets do not.

Technically... one could run bio-pellets (at least the brand I'm familiar with) for 100 years in sterile water without adding a single speck of the polymer to the water stream. Bio-pellets are reduced and consumed by bacteria only.

Think of bio-pellets as a stationary substrate and food source for bacteria. Bio-pellets are "self regulating" meaning that the amount of biological "activity" on the pellet itself varies in relation to the amount of nutrients in the water. High nutrient system, a great deal of bacterial growth... low nutrient system, not so much bacterial growth.

Adding a dose of liquid Vodka/Vinegar/Sugar always creates a temporary imbalance of nutrients and bacteria levels. Dose>Bloom>Die-off

Having said that... I've seen fantastic aquariums using both methods or neither method.

 

[reefknight]

Jon, I see your point that with pellets your technically not dosing. But in both cases you are feeding the bacteria, lol. It's just splitting hairs of soluble versus a solid state of carbon to be consumed by the bacteria that is present and/ or being dosed to assist. (MB7) I of course would expect you to be on the solid dosing side of the fence. Business is business after all, sir! If I were to use pellets, I would of course be using yours. Nothing but great things out of them!

I can respect both ideals and have read in depth on both schools of thought. I'm looking for some ideas of which will actually assist in correcting the situation that is currently present in my system. Hate to say I'm looking for the magic bullet, but I really am looking for a solution to hopefully correct both issues. My bio load may increase in the future, so something that can be adjusted to meet that increase would great.

 

[biom]

I prefer "liquid"carbon dosing in form of ethanol/acetic acid mix, because I don't want to restrict bacterial growth in a reactor, I prefer bacteria to use life rocks as substratum for their growth and to clean them out from nuisance algae and detritus, sounds more natural to me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

[QUOTE="reefknight, post: 2401050, member: 2082"

In my situation, my goal is rather dual purposed. To lower both the PO4 and NO3 levels for the system, hence as a result I should notice a vast reduction in cyano and diatoms. So would would you suggest to begin more frequent changes in GFO and also carbon dosing? Also with dosing vinegar instead of vodka, do you follow the same guidelines and chart that was published in Reefkeeping 8/2008?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'd do both (in fact, I do both).

The article is a bit slow on the ramp up (you can go faster, IMO), and vinegar is about 1/8 as strong as vodka, so take that into account.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I prefer "liquid"carbon dosing in form of ethanol/acetic acid mix, because I don't want to restrict bacterial growth in a reactor, I prefer bacteria to use life rocks as substratum for their growth and to clean them out from nuisance algae and detritus, sounds more natural to me.

I agree. I also think that the acetate I add from vinegar may well be used by many organisms, including zooxanthellae.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Think of bio-pellets as a stationary substrate and food source for bacteria. Bio-pellets are "self regulating" meaning that the amount of biological "activity" on the pellet itself varies in relation to the amount of nutrients in the water. High nutrient system, a great deal of bacterial growth... low nutrient system, not so much bacterial growth.

Adding a dose of liquid Vodka/Vinegar/Sugar always creates a temporary imbalance of nutrients and bacteria levels. Dose>Bloom>Die-off

I'm not sure I see the difference. Isn't the amount of activity on free acetate also self regulating in the same way?

FWIW, that's one reason I prefer acetate over ethanol, because so many marine creatures are known to be able to use acetate and that may not be as widely true for ethanol. If bacteria stop using it due to restricted nutrients, other creatures may pick up the slack, at least temporarily.

That said, I never drive my tank to ULNS anyway, and use many different nutrient export methods at the same time so each may make up for limitations of the others.

 

[reefknight]

Ok, so I believe after further examination that I'm sold on dosing vinegar. One of the primary reasons is that it doesn't cause a cyanobacteria bloom. Now if I have a small dusting of cyano present when I begin dosing will that be an issue? Also do you combine any sort of bacteria culture to your vinegar dosing regiment(ie MB7, ZeoBak) as when others dose vodka? ALso do you recommend the lowered dKh of 7-8 to prevent burning of SPS corals with vinegar dosing that is encouraged with vodka?

Sorry, I didn't notice those answered when reading over this article:
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

I just want to be as prepared for as many situations as possible. I have tried ULNS type systems before and some of them are great systems. Some are just too expensive and some are just too costly. Some are both! I want to find the middle ground of controlling the nutrients and keeping them low, controlling and eliminating nuisance algae, feed my fish and corals the way they need and have bright attractive corals. (Not pale washed out sticks, that are starving.)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't dose bacteria, but some folks do and think it useful.

IMO, the only times it seems useful is if all the natural bacteria are making a cloud in the water column, or if Cyanobacteria takes off as the primary user of the added organic. Except expense, I see no significant drawbacks to adding bacteria, but bear in mind you may not actually be adding species that thrive on the particular organic you use.

 

[biom]

I used to use acetate in my mostly SPS reef and it was fine, but colors of my SPS becomes dark and less vibrant, when I switched to ethanol/acetic acid mix they improved their colors in matter of days, I was really impressed. Now my corals look like under Zeo. My explanation of this is just like Randy says zooxanthellae in the corals could utilize some acetate from water and increase in numbers and that causes darkening of corals tissue. But it seem that they can't utilize ethanol.

And another advantage of acetate/ethanol over biopellets is that "liquid"carbon could influence significantly phosphates in the water, while biopellets did not. One explanation of this could be existence of Polyphosphate Accumulating Organisms (PAOs) which are bacterial strains capable to accumulate phosphates (1000x in some cases) in their cells in presence of acetate in the water .

 

[reefknight]

I don't relish the thought of my SPS's darkening or browning. A few I'm still attempting to get some great color out of due to the nutrient issue, I believe.

I am assuming that your ethanol/ acetic acid was a custom blend. Do you mind sharing the blend and the dosing regiment?

Yesterday to battle the bit of cyanogen that is there and diatoms I added fresh Rowaphos, 1/2c. Will test results in a day or so and see. Let that determine when to replace again. Then I'll want to begin with the carbon dosing. My Alk has been maintaining 9-9.4dKh. Do I need to reduce it before beginning dosing as with other carbon dosing regiments?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I used to use acetate in my mostly SPS reef and it was fine, but colors of my SPS becomes dark and less vibrant, when I switched to ethanol/acetic acid mix they improved their colors in matter of days, I was really impressed. Now my corals look like under Zeo. My explanation of this is just like Randy says zooxanthellae in the corals could utilize some acetate from water and increase in numbers and that causes darkening of corals tissue. But it seem that they can't utilize ethanol.

And another advantage of acetate/ethanol over biopellets is that "liquid"carbon could influence significantly phosphates in the water, while biopellets did not. One explanation of this could be existence of Polyphosphate Accumulating Organisms (PAOs) which are bacterial strains capable to accumulate phosphates (1000x in some cases) in their cells in presence of acetate in the water .

Good points, Biom. Thanks for posting them.

 

[biom]

I am assuming that your ethanol/ acetic acid was a custom blend. Do you mind sharing the blend and the dosing regiment?

Yesterday to battle the bit of cyanogen that is there and diatoms I added fresh Rowaphos, 1/2c. Will test results in a day or so and see. Let that determine when to replace again. Then I'll want to begin with the carbon dosing. My Alk has been maintaining 9-9.4dKh. Do I need to reduce it before beginning dosing as with other carbon dosing regiments?

I'm using DIY NOPOX - 580 ml vinegar 5% and 420 ml vodka 80 proof. I'm dosing 13 ml per 100 gal daily. IMO 9 dKh is OK.

 

[reefknight]

Awesome, thank you for sharing the blend. Did you you ramp up to the amount that you are currently using as a maintenance dose? If I were to use your custom blend, is there any words of advice that you would share?

 

[leptang]

I'm kinda on the fence about using polymer bio-pellets. I read a article about findings plastic polymer in pods after desolving then in acid, and what's left is polymer. So if bacteria eats the bio-pellets, its in the bacteria. The bacteria gets knocked off the bio-pellets and lands on the what the pods eat, the the fish eat the pods. Now the polymer is in everything. With chemicals like BPA in plastic I wonder if it reduces the expected life of the inhabitants of our tanks.

 

[redfishbluefish]

@leptang, don't be fooled by the chemical terms used with biopellets. Realize the polymer (compound) produced to form biopellets is a typical product of bacteria. That's right, bacteria produce the stuff that makes up biopellets. It's not like it's cyanide or BPA or some other nasty chemical. Simply think of it as food for bacteria.......no nasties involved. The bacteria "attach" to the biopellets and munch until full. They then get sloughed off to be picked up by your skimmer. No "nasties" end up in your tank or in your corals or fish. It's as clean as the driven snow.

 

[Jon Warner]

@leptang, don't be fooled by the chemical terms used with biopellets. Realize the polymer (compound) produced to form biopellets is a typical product of bacteria. That's right, bacteria produce the stuff that makes up biopellets. It's not like it's cyanide or BPA or some other nasty chemical. Simply think of it as food for bacteria.......no nasties involved. The bacteria "attach" to the biopellets and munch until full. They then get sloughed off to be picked up by your skimmer. No "nasties" end up in your tank or in your corals or fish. It's as clean as the driven snow.

absolutely correct.

PHA is produced by bacteria and forms intracellular globs in the bacterium. Biochemical engineers use environmental triggers to force the bacteria into the PHA production mode. Then they use various methods to separate the PHA from the biomass. The better procedure is to use a water separation method while some use a solvent based separation method. In the vernacular, there are no "chemicals" in bio-polymer. Some forms of PHA are registered by the FDA as approved for medical use in extended release dosing or soluble devices.

How cool is that? Some specific strains of bacteria make their own food supply in anticipation of a rainy day. We harvest it from them and use it to make picnic forks, medical devices and to clean up aquariums.

Don't even get me started on how we now have genetically manipulated plants to produce PHA.