Biological filter media and (de)nitrifying bacteria

[KleineVampir]

Ah yes, denitrifying bacteria. The final step in the nitrogen cycle! Anyways, just today I received my detox blox:
And I've been reading up on this stuff. I guess I'll get to my questions now: A: Why wouldn't this be something included in the Triton method? If they're able to gas off the nitrate, and also house nitrifying bacteria. It's just now that I'm researching and learning about these things. Had to find them on my own before anybody really said too much about them. B: Are these things really as good as I think they are, and do they really have no downsides? (Other than your wallet! That said they're still cheaper than a 300 dollar fuge light!)

I've been running a de facto triton method, not doing any water changes. (Though I did add 20 gallons recently.) It's a 40b display with a 20g sump +5 gallons of the old HOB refugium that I still use. So about 60 gallons all in all. There's a little bit of everything in the tank. I've been having problems with GHA (hair algae) for a while now. I cut feeding in half, upped the chaeto fuge light to a nice kessil grow light. 150h purple I think. I've spent way too much money on "clean up crew" for all the good they've done!

So why does nobody talk about these blocks? Without either this or a deep sand bed, which is a worse solution because the nitrates will all release if you disturb it, you won't even have the possibility of gassing off your nitrate. And I attribute a lot of my problems with critters dying and the GHA to the nitrate that builds up as a direct result of not doing water changes. Lol.

 

[lapin]

These blocks are used to provide more area for bacteria to grow.
Marine Pure seems to be the most popular brand. Lots of threads on these things.

Ceramic Biomedia Plate

Why does BRS recommend this? Biological filtration is the number one key to a nice and stable reef tank, and anytime we can sneak in some MarinePure Biomedia into an All in one tank, sump, or even overflows we will. We have run density tests and they have proved to be more porous than any live...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[KleineVampir]

Well a lot of them seem to have the problem of falling apart. Sure they have a ton of surface area but what's the point if it just turns into dust after a while? Might as well just get a deep sand bed, lol. Plus people say the marine pure blocks can leech aluminum into the water. Somebody said it's just silicates but still seems kinda messed up to have random fine particles being released into your water. The one I got seems more solid.

 

[KleineVampir]

Can anybody on here say they've actually put one of these blocks into their aquarium (doesn't matter which brand), and come away with obviously good results?

 

[Singspot]

I have 2 of these in my sump for 240G DT + 60 G Sump system. I do not see any bubbles comes (assume denitrification/ release of Nitrogen will slow as some amount bubbles ... I also have 25 to 35 Nitrate ....

Anyone else any experience?

Ceramic Biomedia Plate

Why does BRS recommend this? Biological filtration is the number one key to a nice and stable reef tank, and anytime we can sneak in some MarinePure Biomedia into an All in one tank, sump, or even overflows we will. We have run density tests and they have proved to be more porous than any live...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Lota Reefer]

Hey @Amit Singh I think it comes down to the system and how one wants to reef. I have a system that runs quite well using blocks. Although I am actively looking to develop that system to see most of the filtration be bacterial in nature and am using around 2000sq ft of surface area per gallon and am having to dose nitrates (kn03) as they bottom out. In your system that would be around 12 blocks. My system is closer to 20 gallons...see how system can effect method...Also not everyone wants to reef that way so finding what works for you ( chemical, biological, mechanical and various combinations of these) and going with that is probably where most reefers will land. That being said there are lots of successes with any of the main 3 filtration types including bacterial. Here you can see I have used maxspect biospheres to create a stable plenum under a DSB in the sump to create the anoxic zone to encourage dentification which as shown above works quite well.

 

[KleineVampir]

I have 2 of these in my sump for 240G DT + 60 G Sump system. I do not see any bubbles comes (assume denitrification/ release of Nitrogen will slow as some amount bubbles ... I also have 25 to 35 Nitrate ....

Anyone else any experience?

Ceramic Biomedia Plate

Why does BRS recommend this? Biological filtration is the number one key to a nice and stable reef tank, and anytime we can sneak in some MarinePure Biomedia into an All in one tank, sump, or even overflows we will. We have run density tests and they have proved to be more porous than any live...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

There wouldn't be any bubbles. That oxygen and nitrogen are highly dissolved, coming out of bacteria. It should just dissolve completely into the water, and in the case of nitrogen, out into the air.

 

[Singspot]

Hey @Amit Singh I think it comes down to the system and how one wants to reef. I have a system that runs quite well using blocks. Although I am actively looking to develop that system to see most of the filtration be bacterial in nature and am using around 2000sq ft of surface area per gallon and am having to dose nitrates (kn03) as they bottom out. In your system that would be around 12 blocks. My system is closer to 20 gallons...see how system can effect method...Also not everyone wants to reef that way so finding what works for you ( chemical, biological, mechanical and various combinations of these) and going with that is probably where most reefers will land. That being said there are lots of successes with any of the main 3 filtration types including bacterial. Here you can see I have used maxspect biospheres to create a stable plenum under a DSB in the sump to create the anoxic zone to encourage dentification which as shown above works quite well.

Thanks for sharing, some follow up questions pls.

1. Often approach for 20G may be different from that for 240G tanks ... likely if it works for 20G, it will work for 240G too ... anyone have bio and mechanical filtration experience for 240G?
2. I use this marine pure block ... any feedback comparing the maxspect bio balls to this slab? I have 2 of these, 4 more will help?

Ceramic Biomedia Plate

Why does BRS recommend this? Biological filtration is the number one key to a nice and stable reef tank, and anytime we can sneak in some MarinePure Biomedia into an All in one tank, sump, or even overflows we will. We have run density tests and they have proved to be more porous than any live...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

3. In your sump, I see you have some perforated plate on top of the balls and above the plate you have sand lookikg stuff .. can you elaborate what you have, the purpose and how you arranged them?
4. What did you mean by " stable plenum"? What is "a DSB" and how does it produce anoxic zone?
5. How did you conclude the stuff works? (You said, "to encourage dentification which as shown above works quite well")

 

[KleineVampir]

Thanks for sharing, some follow up questions pls.

1. Often approach for 20G may be different from that for 240G tanks ... likely if it works for 20G, it will work for 240G too ... anyone have bio and mechanical filtration experience for 240G?
2. I use this marine pure block ... any feedback comparing the maxspect bio balls to this slab? I have 2 of these, 4 more will help?

Ceramic Biomedia Plate

Why does BRS recommend this? Biological filtration is the number one key to a nice and stable reef tank, and anytime we can sneak in some MarinePure Biomedia into an All in one tank, sump, or even overflows we will. We have run density tests and they have proved to be more porous than any live...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

3. In your sump, I see you have some perforated plate on top of the balls and above the plate you have sand lookikg stuff .. can you elaborate what you have, the purpose and how you arranged them?
4. What did you mean by " stable plenum"? What is "a DSB" and how does it produce anoxic zone?
5. How did you conclude the stuff works? (You said, "to encourage dentification which as shown above works quite well")

DSB is deep sand bed.

 

[Lota Reefer]

Hi Amit,

Thanks for your questions. Curiosity is a wonderful driver in our hobby. While I wont be able to answer all questions, please keep asking them! As for those above:
1. Yes people do use biological filtration heavily on large systems. I dont think it appropriate to drop names however when researching look up things like N2; dentrification; anoxic filtration; biocenosis; DSB; plenum even miracle mud and cryptic zones all feed into this category and expand the options / knowledge.
2. The comparing brand or type doesnt matter so much, look at square foot surface area of the product you choose. Those marine pure blocks have excellent surface area for their physical size.
3. In the photo you are looking at a plenum. The craft mesh is used so the sand cant drop into the space underneath. This preserves that area for water exchange. Above the mesh is larger sand, this is to stop critters burrowing down and the top layer is finer sand for the critters to do their thing. The idea is to slow the water flow in order to make the very bottom depleted of oxygen. With such little oxygen (02) the bacteria need to find it from somewhere, so they get the from nitrates. Nitrates chemical make up is N03. So the bacteria take the nitrate and break it up to get the oxygen. They use the 02 and return the N as gas, completing the denitrification process.
4. Stable plenum means it had cycled and DSB means deep sand bed as @KleineVampir has said.
5. I concluded I was happy with mine as my system reads no detectable nitrates (red sea pro) and so I am dosing nitrates now to give some back to the corals.

Keep on reefing

 

[Lota Reefer]

@KleineVampir regarding your enquiry. I understand the Triton method to require nitrates in the water to feed the macro algae. Therefore the nitrogen cycle is expected to happen on the reef rock and sand bed, not requiring extra for dentrification. The red field ratio shows the relationship nutrients (N03 and P04) are taken up so they are needed in the water to support the macro algae. If for example bio load exceeded Triton recommendations swamped the algae/skimmer being used then additional filtration like you have suggested would be great additions.

 

[KleineVampir]

@KleineVampir regarding your enquiry. I understand the Triton method to require nitrates in the water to feed the macro algae. Therefore the nitrogen cycle is expected to happen on the reef rock and sand bed, not requiring extra for dentrification. The red field ratio shows the relationship nutrients (N03 and P04) are taken up so they are needed in the water to support the macro algae. If for example bio load exceeded Triton recommendations swamped the algae/skimmer being used then additional filtration like you have suggested would be great additions.

Yeah I have been thinking along these lines lately. Not sure if it was the cold (it was exposed to probably 65 degree temps for 12 hours or so.) or the lack of flow or the hair algae, or the blocks, or the microbacter 7...but...it doesn't seem to be doing so well. The hair algae on it looks even worse, looks like a lot of the hair algae in the sump started to dissolve a bit and that's where I put the microbacter 7. Can microbacter 7 slow down chaeto growth?

Also do you really believe that the blocks could work so well as to deprive the cheato of nitrate? We're talking about a tank overrun with GHA..somehow I don't think running out of nitrate is a problem. At least not right now. Anyways I feel that the chaeto alone could not reduce the nitrates fast enough, so there seemed to be room to decrease them even more and still grow the chaeto.

 

[Lota Reefer]

Ok I see what you are saying. I do think biological activities can be grown enough to maintain water, however pursuing this method in the middle of using another one is probably not a good idea. Let's focus on getting the result out of the triton method. When was your last icp test? Can you access the help tab to search for high nitrate solutions? Your fuge is Hob right...can you confirm the fuge and the kessil meet Tritons recommendations...around .08w/L etc. Follow that help tab...let us know what you find

 

[KleineVampir]

Ok I see what you are saying. I do think biological activities can be grown enough to maintain water, however pursuing this method in the middle of using another one is probably not a good idea. Let's focus on getting the result out of the triton method. When was your last icp test? Can you access the help tab to search for high nitrate solutions? Your fuge is Hob right...can you confirm the fuge and the kessil meet Tritons recommendations...around .08w/L etc. Follow that help tab...let us know what you find

Somehow you got the idea that I'm actually doing the triton method, however I am not. Maybe I should though. This water's never been tested, except by me of course. Also there is a HOB fuge but the chaeto is in the sump. That hob wasn't big enough for me apparently.

 

[Lota Reefer]

Oh my mistake. If you just want GHA gone have you considered Vibrant?

 

[KleineVampir]

Oh my mistake. If you just want GHA gone have you considered Vibrant?

I have chaeto though. Then again if it's dead now maybe I might as well! I was going to use hydrogen peroxide.

 

[Lota Reefer]

I only had limited success with HP. It was 6%. Hard to get stronger around here. Found a tip that said pull a rock out, scrub it down and treat with Hp. Wash it off and return, if it comes back in a few days dont bother trying on the rest of the tank. Manual removal is great, but getting the roots out seems problematic. I had success with vibrant...1. N03 and P04 were very low for a couple of weeks. 2. Dosed when fuge lighting was on so the cheato was growing for the day. 3. Cut the pump to the fuge for an hour. The vibrant stayed in the DT with power heads running. Seemed the bulk of the product got to work on the DT gha and left the fuge alone...thought it was the most I could do to preserve my cheato. If the gha was amongst the fuge cheato I would probably chuck it and start again...but the LFS close makes that an easy decision for me.

 

[KleineVampir]

Well part of my hopes for the HP, as you say, is that it could nuke all the hair off the chaeto. But I've never done such a thing before so maybe it's naive to think it would do that. But I was told HP doesn't destroy your macroalgae, of which I am trying to preserve since I have some macro that I am growing in the display. Some caulerpa prolifera.