BioPellets, Aquaforest, and PH

[Adamc13o3]

I am experiencing 1 and 4 in your list exactly. Haven't measured potassium so that MIGHT be happening. Haven't seen diatoms yet.

Any idea what brand of biopellets you're using? I can't imagine that everyone who uses biopellets has these issues, I feel like there has to be a common thread here.

I am using ecobac and have the low PH issue, however when I was running just pellets I didn't have this issue. This is started when I started aqua forest and now with vinegar.

 

[Liti]

Could Low pH could be caused by increased bacterial activity. From what I've read bacteria produce acidic compounds in aquariums, not sure if it is enough to cause low pH though

 

[re76]

Could Low pH could be caused by increased bacterial activity. From what I've read bacteria produce acidic compounds in aquariums, not sure if it is enough to cause low pH though

It is possible but I have near zero nutrients right now. I would expect to see the ph rise again as the bacteria adjusts to the reduced available nutrients. This is just speculation though.

 

[BlueCursor]

I am experiencing 1 and 4 in your list exactly. Haven't measured potassium so that MIGHT be happening. Haven't seen diatoms yet.

Any idea what brand of biopellets you're using? I can't imagine that everyone who uses biopellets has these issues, I feel like there has to be a common thread here.

I was using BRS brand pellets. There has been some debate and counter debate on whether the brand matters. Some say it does, others say they are all manufactured by the same company and packaged by different companies.

 

[BlueCursor]

It is possible but I have near zero nutrients right now. I would expect to see the ph rise again as the bacteria adjusts to the reduced available nutrients. This is just speculation though.

Even when phosphate measures 0, it's still there. It just is picked up quickly by bacteria/plants and held onto. Only anaerobic bacteria need nitrate. Other bacteria use ammonia, nitrite, or just dissolved nitrogen. So even with ULNS you will have tons of bacteria in the tank. The ocean has UNLS and a lot more bacteria than we have in our tank water column.

By adding carbon, we are removing that limiting factor. N is never limited for many bacteria (only anaerobic ones), P is rarely actually limiting even with zero readings, and O is obviously never limited.

 

[re76]

Well I ordered a bottle of NP pro along with some Pro Bio F.

I think I will slowly start decreasing the effluent flow through the pellet reactor, and start slowly using NP pro. It is a recirculating biopellet reactor so they will always be tumbling correctly as I slow down the flow.

I'm going to keep updating this thread with what I see as i make the transition. My thought is to briefly use the Pro Bio F after I am done with the transition and see how that affects alk and ph compared to NP Pro.

From my understanding NP Pro is synthetic polymer, like the pellets, where as the Pro Bio F is organic.

 

[Anirban]

Well I ordered a bottle of NP pro along with some Pro Bio F.

I think I will slowly start decreasing the effluent flow through the pellet reactor, and start slowly using NP pro. It is a recirculating biopellet reactor so they will always be tumbling correctly as I slow down the flow.

I'm going to keep updating this thread with what I see as i make the transition. My thought is to briefly use the Pro Bio F after I am done with the transition and see how that affects alk and ph compared to NP Pro.

From my understanding NP Pro is synthetic polymer, like the pellets, where as the Pro Bio F is organic.

Yes, NP Pro is a synthetic polymer and Pro Bio F is bacteria and bacterial food together. Is there any specific reason for not using the Pro Bio S instead of Pro bio F. Also, dont dose Pro bio F and Np pro together because that will be overdosing the bacterial food part.

 

[re76]

Yes, NP Pro is a synthetic polymer and Pro Bio F is bacteria and bacterial food together. Is there any specific reason for not using the Pro Bio S instead of Pro bio F. Also, dont dose Pro bio F and Np pro together because that will be overdosing the bacterial food part.

Sorry I should have clarified. I already have Pro Bio S and have been dosing it. I am aware of the differences between Pro Bio F and NP Pro.

I plan on transitioning first to NP Pro and seeing if that increases my PH back to where I would like it, and brings my alk consumption back to where I think it should be. I believe that the biopellets are somehow artificially increasing my alk consumption AND lowering my PH.

I don't plan on ever using NP Pro and Pro Bio F together, only one or the other at any given time. My rationale is that if I start using NP Pro instead of the biopellets and STILL have weird PH and alk issues, THEN I will stop using NP Pro and try Pro Bio F. My concern is because both NP Pro and Biopellets are a synthetic carbon source, they both might exhibit the same issues. In that case I would try the Pro Bio F, because it is organic maybe it will not cause the same problem.

Really I just want to find the root cause of what is lowering my PH. If NP Pro is the solution, and it fixes my PH issue, then I will probably just stick to it and not use the Pro Bio F. I may use it occasionally though to promote bacterial bio-diversity.

 

[Anirban]

Sorry I should have clarified. I already have Pro Bio S and have been dosing it. I am aware of the differences between Pro Bio F and NP Pro.

I plan on transitioning first to NP Pro and seeing if that increases my PH back to where I would like it, and brings my alk consumption back to where I think it should be. I believe that the biopellets are somehow artificially increasing my alk consumption AND lowering my PH.

I don't plan on ever using NP Pro and Pro Bio F together, only one or the other at any given time. My rationale is that if I start using NP Pro instead of the biopellets and STILL have weird PH and alk issues, THEN I will stop using NP Pro and try Pro Bio F. My concern is because both NP Pro and Biopellets are a synthetic carbon source, they both might exhibit the same issues. In that case I would try the Pro Bio F, because it is organic maybe it will not cause the same problem.

Really I just want to find the root cause of what is lowering my PH. If NP Pro is the solution, and it fixes my PH issue, then I will probably just stick to it and not use the Pro Bio F. I may use it occasionally though to promote bacterial bio-diversity.

How much exactly your pH drop per day without Calk?
As far I understand Pro bio F is synthetic too but instead of liquid it comes as a lyophilised powder state added with the bacteria. So if you add it thinking that you are not adding synthetic media its possibly not true. Its been designed for smaller tanks with object of easier dosing.
Now coming back to the point of NO3 and Alk. I was once having an issue of low ph and trying to figure out with Randy whats the issue? So, he suggested a very interesting point. When NO3 get fixed by anaerobic bacteria it releases CO2 and this can decrease pH depending upon how much fixation is going on. For a time while my pH was low although not critically low. After a certain time its started to increase and now it sits between 8.1-8.4. If you want I think I can send you the link for that article.

 

[re76]

How much exactly your pH drop per day without Calk?
As far I understand Pro bio F is synthetic too but instead of liquid it comes as a lyophilised powder state added with the bacteria. So if you add it thinking that you are not adding synthetic media its possibly not true. Its been designed for smaller tanks with object of easier dosing.
Now coming back to the point of NO3 and Alk. I was once having an issue of low ph and trying to figure out with Randy whats the issue? So, he suggested a very interesting point. When NO3 get fixed by anaerobic bacteria it releases CO2 and this can decrease pH depending upon how much fixation is going on. For a time while my pH was low although not critically low. After a certain time its started to increase and now it sits between 8.1-8.4. If you want I think I can send you the link for that article.

I would gladly read that article you mention.

I am hesitant to think that CO2 is the issue. Using a CO2 scrubber AND kalk, I should have very minimal CO2 in my system. Before I started using the CO2 scrubber connected to my skimmer I assumed it was a CO2 problem. Even with the CO2 scrubber and using fully saturated Kalk as my top off I am maxing out my PH at about 8.01. I am able to keep it between 7.8 and 8.01 as long as I dose alk (as sodium carbonate) daily. Even with this daily addition of alk I still struggle to keep my alk above 7.5. It seems like no matter how much I dose I still measure at 7.3-7.4 the next morning. I have been ramping up the sodium carbonate dose .5 tsp every day. I am now up to 2 tsp which should be raising my alk by about 1.3 dKH. I dose this slowly over the course of the day.

I have a hard time believing that my lightly stocked system is consuming over 1 dKH of alk per day. I also live in a very old drafty house that has radiant heat, and only one other person. I am sure there is not locally elevated CO2 in my room. I can't rule out though that the area I live in might have generally elevated CO2 levels.

I can try turning off the Kalk reactor and seeing where my PH settles.

 

[Anirban]

I would gladly read that article you mention.

I am hesitant to think that CO2 is the issue. Using a CO2 scrubber AND kalk, I should have very minimal CO2 in my system. Before I started using the CO2 scrubber connected to my skimmer I assumed it was a CO2 problem. Even with the CO2 scrubber and using fully saturated Kalk as my top off I am maxing out my PH at about 8.01. I am able to keep it between 7.8 and 8.01 as long as I dose alk (as sodium carbonate) daily. Even with this daily addition of alk I still struggle to keep my alk above 7.5. It seems like no matter how much I dose I still measure at 7.3-7.4 the next morning. I have been ramping up the sodium carbonate dose .5 tsp every day. I am now up to 2 tsp which should be raising my alk by about 1.3 dKH. I dose this slowly over the course of the day.

I have a hard time believing that my lightly stocked system is consuming over 1 dKH of alk per day. I also live in a very old drafty house that has radiant heat, and only one other person. I am sure there is not locally elevated CO2 in my room. I can't rule out though that the area I live in might have generally elevated CO2 levels.

I can try turning off the Kalk reactor and seeing where my PH settles.

CO2 scrubber generally work but not always. Specially if your tank sits in a place where there is less fresh air exchange. I faced that same issue. A bacterial driven system can mess a lot with your alkalinity and pH. Read the article it will possibly help you to undestand how all these are very interconnected...

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

 

[re76]

I would gladly read that article you mention.

I am hesitant to think that CO2 is the issue. Using a CO2 scrubber AND kalk, I should have very minimal CO2 in my system. Before I started using the CO2 scrubber connected to my skimmer I assumed it was a CO2 problem. Even with the CO2 scrubber and using fully saturated Kalk as my top off I am maxing out my PH at about 8.01. I am able to keep it between 7.8 and 8.01 as long as I dose alk (as sodium carbonate) daily. Even with this daily addition of alk I still struggle to keep my alk above 7.5. It seems like no matter how much I dose I still measure at 7.3-7.4 the next morning. I have been ramping up the sodium carbonate dose .5 tsp every day. I am now up to 2 tsp which should be raising my alk by about 1.3 dKH. I dose this slowly over the course of the day.

I have a hard time believing that my lightly stocked system is consuming over 1 dKH of alk per day. I also live in a very old drafty house that has radiant heat, and only one other person. I am sure there is not locally elevated CO2 in my room. I can't rule out though that the area I live in might have generally elevated CO2 levels.

I can try turning off the Kalk reactor and seeing where my PH settles.

@Randy Holmes-Farley I just had a thought... If the CO2 scrubber is removing the excess CO2 from my water, and I am dosing kalk. Could the kalk actually be precipitating as CaCO3, reducing my alk and Ca, instead of increasing it? Maybe this would account for the "artificial" alkalinity consumption I am seeing.